"Prediction: if state doesn't take over NW it won't take over any IPS school." Dr. White says Larry Yarrell in the best instructional leader in IPS. What a crock of shit.
Larry has to be the dumbest principal in years. Can't get his facts straight, or he lies like hell. He's going to yell at the wrong person someday, and he'll get his George Jefferson act shoved down his throat. I have no respect for the guy at all. What's amazing is how he acts pious and says the Good Lord placed him here to reach these students. He could start by showing a little more respect to them, and then a lot more respect for his teachers.
No this is what White wants...bullies...it is exactly how he views teachers, a group of people (cows) who need to be pushed around and lead by a bully (bull). We are little more than dumb animals in his eyes...If there is a God he needs to take a look at what is going on in IPS.
When I think about how God wants us to treat people I don't think of bullying, I think of the parable of the good Samaritan. Maybe Yarrel needs to close his mouth, read that parable and pray for some wisdom in regard to his treatment of teachers and students. He hasn't lifted anyone up.
Some people feel lifted up when they step on other folks. Seems like that's the case here.
Has anyone heard about a requirement for Manual teachers to set their schedules between 9 AM and 9 PM for next school year? I received this info from an old roommate who works there, but I didn't want to ask anything else.
@"No this is what White wants...bullies" If you don't know the difference between lead and led, perhaps you are a "dumb animal." And I don't care what you teach. You are presumably a college graduate and a citizen of an English speaking country.
@We are little more than dumb animals in his eyes.
Remember last August? We mules were to shake off the dirt (read shit)and step up. I wish he had warned us all to get hip-waders, blinders, and nose clips. How prophetic/pathetic.
BTW, I LOVED Gary Varvel's depiction of White, Bennett, Kennedy and Ballard in today's Star Editorial cartoon. Varvel drew what's happening to our system. His picture truly equates to more than a thousand words.
BTW, if you truly believe you can't be traced, you're an idiot. Your Blackberry has GPS, which is like hacking a trail through the bushes. Your cell provider follows and records your connections with cell towers. All texts are saved on your provider's mainframe, and have been successfully used as evidence in trials. Nothing is ever deleted (no, you only took it off your screen. It's still on your hard drive or in your provider's storage). Your IP (Internet Protocol) address is localized, just like your area/zip codes. Anyone with a tiny bit of programming knowledge can acquire your information in minutes.
How do I know this? My credit card number was stolen when I unwittingly used a tampered credit card reader (called a skimmer) on a gas pump. Chase called me 30 minutes after my card was used online to purchase a thousand bucks of computer equipment. The electronics company also called to verify my purchase, as they had my name, address, and phone number. The reason for both calls? The IP address used to make the order was in Texas, but my IP address is in Greenwood.
Big brother is watching. Don't kid yourself. Your free speech is protected, but not on school equipment OR ON SCHOOL TIME. Don't read or post it in or at school. IPS tracks you every time you use your badge to enter school or use an elevator. You signed an technology-use agreement earlier this school year. Violation of this agreement can be used to terminate an employee.
I would not be surprised if/when IPS uses this to thin our ranks.
So, here is what I don't get. You want IPS to get tough on discipline . . . to create orderly environments where teachers can teach and students can learn. So, why do you care what happens to students who are expelled? By law, those students are not guaranteed to attend IPS or any other school corporation. If they are expelled from a "Turnaround", there is no distinction in Indiana law that entitles them to just go and enroll in IPS. This is equally true of kids expelled from charters. If bad kids are kicked out of public schools (non-privates) and IPS takes them in, that is a choice IPS makes. The problem then is not with the school that sets the standard, but rather with the school that refuses to uphold it.
Expelled students have been given due process, and are no longer entitled to public school enrollment until the end of their expulsion.
Jackie Greenwood ruined Arlington by accepting students who'd been expelled from township schools. She also refused to uphold any behavior standards for these expelled students once enrolled at Arlington.
Just imagine, she's now the Executive Director of Secondary Education for the IPS! She couldn't manage one high school; now she's supposed to be managing all the high schools. What a joke!
I was a bit confused by the Indy Star article. Would the takeover occur in August (2011) or in August of 2012? I thought it was supposed to right away?
That article is confusing, but the one from the 9th says August 2012. "But Bennett is in contract talks with outside organizations -- both companies and nonprofit groups -- under which they could take control of failing schools in the fall of 2012 after a transition year."
"Your free speech is protected, but not on school equipment OR ON SCHOOL TIME. Don't read or post it in or at school. IPS tracks you every time you use your badge to enter school or use an elevator. You signed an technology-use agreement earlier this school year. Violation of this agreement can be used to terminate an employee."
Yet we work in a district that can't get old outdated Palm pilots to work correctly or to print Dibels data accurately.Brother Scantron messes up district Benchmarks from time to time. Still using Windows XP and Office 03 and servers shut down all to frequently. Hardly a bastion of technology and wonder compared to most.
If you are chosen to be an educator in one of the Turnaround schools, you will be employed by that organization, not IPS. You will be bound by their set salary and working conditions, and lose all tenure/seniority/benefits earned in IPS.
Should you decide to return to IPS after your stint with the takeover institution, you come back as a first year teacher with no seniority.
That's not true. It would be just like if you came to IPS from another district. They count all of your years as a teacher.
Now the pay scale/range at the Turnaround School might be completely different. But you have no way of knowing whether it will be better or worse. You're just fearmongering.
@Should you decide to return to IPS after your stint with the takeover institution, you come back as a first year teacher with no seniority. _______________________________________________
This is blatantly incorrect and is pandering to fears within the teaching ranks.
Thank you Linda Davis! Very smart woman who surrounds herself with professionals who do their jobs plus! Now, all you haters of BRMHS, keep on hating as WE are only going to get better!
@Should you decide to return to IPS after your stint with the takeover institution, you come back as a first year teacher with no seniority.
Actually, it's only partially incorrect. You will have had a "break in service", which puts you back at zero years as both building and IPS years of service. Accepting a temporary contract also creates a break.
As far as salary, no one knows what's going to happen. Most districts will pay only ten years experience to a returning certified staff member, which is a window of opportunity to our youngest (read years of experience) educators.
What are you talking about? I know several people who have left the district because of spouse transfers, etc., and came back, and all of their years in and out of the district were counted, even if they had more than 10 years.
Yes, the IPS salary schedule is based on years of teaching experience, not years of experience in IPS. Your pay would be exactly the same if you taught 15 years at IPS, 2 years at a turnaround school or any other school, and then came back to IPS as if you had taught the entire 17 years at IPS.
I can't believe you guys are focusing on the pay scale instead of the fact that the turnaround schools do not have to keep current IPS teachers, and IPS wouldn't have to rehire them after they'd taught at a turnaround school.
@Most districts will pay only ten years experience to a returning certified staff member, which is a window of opportunity to our youngest (read years of experience) educators.
IPS doesn't HAVE to rehire you. If you, with your 17 years of experience, are sitting next to a newly-minted educator, who do you think IPS will hire?
However, RIFs (Reductions in Force) go by years of district seniority, in addition to other criteria. A break in service restarts your district seniority at zero, regardless of your years of teaching experience.
Depending on which organization gets the turnover assignment, only 1/2 of the staff has to be licensed, like a charter.
I'm sure the senior-most secondary-ed teachers will stay with IPS. The problem is that teachers who are usually safe from RIFs won't be, and those teachers will likely take jobs with the turnaround schools if offered. If they aren't offered jobs at the turnaround school, then I guess they can choose whether to get other jobs or wait to be recalled.
A computer system will try to match teachers' and principals' preferences after the brief interviews. Teachers who still don't have a job at the end of the process can apply to teach at some of the worst-performing schools in the state, according to the Providence Journal. The lucky teachers who managed to get hired will start in the fall. Providence teachers have protested since the layoff notices first went out in March, arguing that the city needs to spend more money on public education. Earlier this month, a small group of teachers graded papers in a local mall over the weekend, to raise awareness about the long hours they put in after school gets out.
The city's mayor Angel Taveras said he was forced to close five schools and dismiss about 25 percent of the city's teachers because of the $110 million budget shortfall he's facing next year. But teachers are also angry that Taveras is allowing five Achievement First charter schools to open up in the area. The schools will serve nearly 2,000 kids and are partly funded by private foundation money.
So you think those 2000 kids should be forced to go to a failing school that has not served them well in the past (or they'd still be there) just so no teachers ever lose their jobs? Because I'm a teacher, and I like job security as much as the next person, but not at the expense of the students.
It is inaccurate that Turnaround Schools will not have to certify teachers. They won't have to bargain, but they still need certified teachers. So, the killer part is they don't have to hire ANY of the existing teachers in the building. Not half, not a third, not one.
If I worked in those buildings (and I wanted to continue), I would be trying to find a way to be whatever the new administration needs to turn the school around instead of pouting about my years of seniority. But, I don't work in those buildings, so I am writing you philosophical opinions at 10:30 at night . . .
"So you think those 2000 kids should be forced to go to a failing school that has not served them well in the past."
Depends what criteria you use for "failing." Schools do more than produce an ISTEP number. I once had a student who I retained come back to me years later and say that she learned more in my classroom that year than at any time. Most of it was about life and about a white girl growing up in a black school district. She is doing well now. In the state's eyes we "failed" that student. She disagrees. She says she wasn't ready. The homes are failing these kids...not the schools.The schools should be given every resource and MORE than any public funded school district to help these kids where the homes can't. Instead they'll cut the most experienced teachers using bogus methods and say they "improved" things..typical big business solution.
If a firefighter comes to your burning house and does some excellent landscaping but doesn't put out the fire in your house, he has failed. It doesn't matter who started the fire or if it could have been prevented, the firefighter has failed. It doesn't matter how well of a job he did with the landscaping. He isn't being paid by the state to landscape. He's paid to put out fires. If he can't or won't do that, then we should find someone who can. If nobody can, we should stop funding fire departments.
I agree with the above post. However, do not leave out the police officers. They are implemented by the state to prevent crime. If they cannot prevent it from happening then they need to be replaced by those who can. Again, if nobody can, then we should stop funding police departments or triple fund a private organization from outside to do the job.
But if a private organization can outperform the state police for the same money, I'm all for it.
Beware of unintended consequences, think about the privatization of trash pick up, it was a little cheaper in the short run...but look at all the former middleclass people who no longer had middle class jobs (benefits, health insurance, vacation) all replaced by minimum wage workers...and the middle income workers really had no opportunity to keep their jobs once they were privatized because they would have needed to by their own trash truck $100,000. And unlike city owned vehicles commercial operators wouldn't put show shovel blades on their trucks, so we ended up paying for both services. I think (guess) that in the long run we really did not save any money, but we did manage to put more money in the hands of the wealthy.
Also to the person who only defines education in terms of test scores, you are so confused about what it means to be educated. Remember both Einstein and Edison were, in their childhood, declared retarded and put out of school. Try taking a look at this piece, and see what you think...http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
That makes sense if you're talking about homeschooling your child instead of sending him to school. But I can teach my kid creativity and good citizenship. I send him to school to learn academics.
More education reforms coming for Indiana high school students
If you thought the recent round of education reforms had the state divided, wait until you hear what's next. Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels (R) and State Superintendent of Public Instruction Dr. Tony Bennett (R) are pushing for a change in the way students graduate high school.
By News Staff
Fox59
12:17 PM EDT, June 14, 2011
Indianapolis
If you thought the recent round of education reforms had the state divided, wait until you hear what's next. Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels (R) and State Superintendent of Public Instruction Dr. Tony Bennett (R) are pushing for a change in the way students graduate high school.
If the legislation passes, it would guarantee high school grads know the information and skills needed for college or career-based training. The effort is still in the early stages and won't be proposed for a few years. If passed, it would be the first time a state would use test scores to determine career readiness.
Yeah, this whole thing where teachers say education isn't about academics or being employable is a bunch of garbage. Public education is absolutely worthless if it doesn't teach academics and how to apply that academic knowledge in the job market.
Also, we wouldn't need standardized tests except that teachers can't be relied upon to be honest. We have thousands of students who have never gotten lower than a C who don't know anything about anything. That's not the failure of the parents or the failure of the students. That's the failure of the teacher/school system.
Not to worried about two years from now. Mitch and Tony will both be looooong gone. Politics influencing educational decisions is way out of line. Politicians have NO idea what is going on in the classroom and one or two visits just don't cut it. Not every student is nor should be college bound. Heck many of them have decided themselves by their freshmen year that they hate school or at least waking up and showing up everyday. That is no ones fault but their own. Nevertheless by the end of a student's freshmen year their next two years should be college prep courses or tech/noncollege/career classes. There never has nor there ever will be a school that graduates 100 percent of their students who want/desire to go to college and we adults who are actually involved in teaching are aware of this. Politicians live in a world that they set educational standards to glorify themselves in front of their peers and are in no way shape or form qualified to make BIG educational decisions. Leave that to those who have the students at their best interest and not politicians who are trying to boost their name, personal agenda or beat up on the opposite party
Students have all year to earn a C. One/one half hours to pass a test. A test is written. Earning grades in a classroom is not only based on written work, but includes participation, labs, in school and out of school work and so much more. So comparing a students year long/or semester long C to a test that doesn't allow the test to have any room for error or discussion is simply a impossible yet we "label" all a student is by one test score. Absolutely pathetic.
Another thing I would like to comment on. Bennett has downplayed the teacher licenses by allowing nonpublic/charter etc., schools hire teachers who are not licensed. I was at the doctors the other day and we got into this discussion. My doctor said to me. Well I certainly hope that people who are ill have the common sense to seek a license physicians care and opinion. He asked, why would anyone want to send their child to a school that does not have a license teacher teaching their child? We wouldn't want an unlicensed electrician wiring our home would we?
You think education reform is going to end if Mitch and Tony aren't in office? Really?
And the difference between a degree in your subject area and an education degree is very similar to the difference between an M.D. degree and an D.O. degree. They're both specialized degrees and which was is better depends on who you ask.
Many degree as in the medical, dental and teaching fields require clinical experience. This is an extremely valuable asset to any professional under the guidance of mentors and those with more experience. "Teaching" experience before one takes over a class requires observation, clinical and hands on experience. I believe most professionals appreciate the ability to learn from clinical experiences...something those who only have subject area degrees may not have or get. I am all for reform don't get me wrong. I simply don't believe how the politicians are going about it is the way to go. They have turned education into political battlefields amongst politicians.
I hope the misguided person who believes that poor kids are to be faulted for not caring about school as high school freshman is not serving young people. You give educators a bad name. You should get out of urban schools. When I worked with private school kids, no one expected them to have great ambitions or incredible skills. We had genius kids and special education kids, and they were all supposed to be headed to college. As their teachers, we couldn't write them off. How dare you suggest that your students shouldn't have every advantage you have had in life by virtue of your education. I am glad this forum is electronic, because I am sure that I would not be able to contain myself in person. Please have the courage to walk away from inner-city children and stop stealing their money (our tax dollars) from them by not providing them with the level of service they deserve. How wretched . . .
I agree if you're comparing two brand new teachers, one with clinical experience, one without, then the one with the education degree might have an edge for the first few months of teaching, but after that what's the difference?
No one said not every child shouldn't be given a fair education. As a teacher you should know that students futures go in many many directions. A student may hate school their freshmen year and love it by their senior year. They could switch to another program. Shame on you for thinking that I don't care about inner city poor youth. I am realistic. If you think America was built or is still being run by 100 percent college grads you aren't living in reality. Why is IVTC's enrollement soaring? Their is more than a 4 year college and their are more than poor inner city youths attending trade schools. Students from all backgrounds aren't going just to the four year colleges and don't need to. Career schools and trade schools offer them educational degrees that we need as a unit to complete the big picture. We ARE leaving children behind because those who aren't truly college material are being ignored by those who think everyone is college bound. We need to open up opportunities for all students and help guide them on their path whether it be a four year college, tech school, internship, or the work force. So get off your high horse cause I bet I work better with inner city kids than you could ever imagine because I don't downplay or ignore them so go teach in your sheltered world. I will never walk away from inner youth because I was one so get over yourself
"You think education reform is going to end if Mitch and Tony aren't in office? Really?"
That's not reform. That's paying off the for-profit turnaround corporations and other gimmick education think tanks that paid to get you elected. TRUE reform would make homes and students more accountable and put money into pre-school education where the gap starts. The big mistake Mitch and Tony made and the rest of the GOP is that educators got them elected. They voted for job creation and less government control in November. They got neither. I'm sure the next few elections they will not be duped again.
Are you at all informed about national politics. Are you familiar with the policies of your Democrat president or his Democratic Secretary of Education? Are you familiar with the policies of the previous Democrat Indianapolis Mayor in regard to charter schools? You can blame it on the homes all you want, but if that's the case, then we need to drastically reduce education spending back to the levels it was 20 years ago because the money isn't improving education. Taxpayers aren't going to keep paying for nothing. The reason education funding rose so much was because the school establishment said it would help improve schools and improved schools would improve the economy and reduce crime. It hasn't help. We need to either improve schools or cut education spending back to where it was when the achievement stagnation started. I prefer improving schools.
There are important gaps in resources between many of the wealthier jurisdictions and many of the poorer jurisdictions. And money matters in education--there's no getting around that. However, many of the gaps in per pupil expenditures between urban districts and their surrounding suburban districts have been closed in the past ten years, not eliminated in all cases, but closed substantially in many cases. [This is] in part because a higher percentage of the expenditures in the poorer districts are now being picked up by the states or even by the federal government through its compensatory education programs.
So, while money matters, it's not the only thing that matters. School safety and discipline matter a lot. Teacher quality matters a lot. Support from parents and the surrounding community matters a lot. And a culture of learning matters a lot. And all of those things have to be attended to at the same time that we continue to focus on the existing and remaining gaps in resources
Back in the day school was school. You came, paid attention, brought your lunch, took home books, studied and did homework at night. Those things have become extinct. Teachers can't follow the students home to make sure they do their homework, go to bed, have a healthy supper and breakfast etc., yet we have burdened the schools with so much more than they were initially intended. When a student gets support from outside of the school everything falls into place.
It's kind of a chicken or egg thing though. Teachers used to be professionals, and so many are not anymore. I'm 44, and when I was in school as a child, I don't remember ever hearing teacher raise his or her voice. It was considered low class to yell at children. Teachers used to think, speak, dress, and conduct themselves like doctors, lawyers, and bankers. It's not like that anymore. I think society as a whole is much more casual, much more comfortable with yelling and carrying on, much less concerned with proper decorum, and kids are raised to not be intimidated. That all has its good points and bad points. I think it's more realistic to change education to adapt to changes in society rather than attempt to change society to adapt to education.
They also didn't used to send home homework kids couldn't do on their own. I graduated in 1991 and I never had a homework assignment that my parents had to help with. The far majority of the homework my kids bring home requires parental assistance. That's fine for me, but it sets up a lot of families for failure who weren't set up for failure in the past.
Are you kidding me? I graduated from high school in the seventies. I can remember mom calling my teacher all the time because she didn't understand my homework and neither did I. Luckily the teacher would give me some extra one on one time with explanations. Lets not forget the famous science projects where it was really a parent vs. parent contest lol. As far as teachers raising their voices my teachers yelled constantly. I can remember one male teacher who would line us up on the playground and yell at us til we were shaking. Guess we can dispute the good old days vs. today all day long lol
I graduated high school in the 80s. I don't remember needing my parents for homework either. My 3rd grade science project was about solvents and I used stuff from the kitchen and never even mentioned anything to my parents about it. It never occurred to me that parents would do the projects until the fair. Luckily it was only a handful of parents, not a majority like it would be today, so I wasn't embarrassed or anything. As a teacher, I do not assign homework that needs parental involvement.
As for the yelling, I remember a couple of yellers, but most didn't yell. Even the teachers who paddled kids didn't tend to yell. I don't yell either, but I do think it's more common now than it was in the past.
I teach at a charter school, and they say that research backs up the trend about homework requiring more help and that it increases the achievement gap between privileged and disadvantaged students. If we give homework, we are supposed to allow enough time for the student to review it and for us to answer any questions they might have.
Homework for my special ed self-contained classes is something I learned wasn't always a good thing. Most of the kiddos ended up just practicing and ultimately reinforcing their errors.
Over the years, I've had more than a few moms request word searches be sent home because they (the moms) like to do the word searches themselves. Kinda sad but true. Figuring that if the moms wanted word searches for themselves, then I'd honor their requests and even design some computer generated words searches.
One of my old principals used to say "everyone believes there are a few retarded folks and everyone else, but the truth is half the people are below average." I grew up in a well off area and there were indeed a few retarded kids I went to school with, out of a school of 2400, there were eight, three downs kids, two cp, and three with no clear cause. All of my parents friends and our neighbors had college degrees. My school had a 98% graduation rate and everyone I knew went on to college and graduated.
Then I started teaching in inner city schools, and discovered what the principal said was true, lots of special ed parents. Most students with mild mental handicaps grow up to be regular people, not residents of group homes. And they become parents, and they really love their children, but are they able to help them with complex homework...no way. Reading is great homework for these kids, "read to your parent". The parent still stays involved without the risk of embarrassment.
How do we as a teaching staff step up and take back our schools? I watched Waiting for Superman the other night and wondered this after the show ended. Have we given up? I'm not being sarcastic or heartless, just wondering what we need to do. Last week I attended the 8 Step Training process and one thing that is crucial is informing kids of their scores on ISTEP+, SRI, DIBELS, etc. and explaining it to them. For me I am not always good about explaining test results to kids and helping them set goals. Is that one piece that we could do better as a teaching staff? Sorry to ramble....
There's an enormous range in between mentally retarded and 98% graduating from college. Almost all of Indiana falls in between those two extremes. Only 16% of Indiana freshmen graduate from college, so you obviously went to a very privileged high school. Also, most IPS do not have low IQ. There might be more special ed students here than in Carmel, but there is no objective reason for IPS to do poorly. Almost all of them would do better in different families, different neighborhoods, and/or different schools.
Your principal was an idiot. Most people are "average." There are a few very smart people and a few very dumb people, but 95% of the population is somewhere in between. Saying "half of the population is below average" shows a lack of understanding of statistics and intelligence. It's like saying since the average 9-year-old weighs 60 pounds that someone who weighs 58 is underweight, and a child that weighs 52 is overweight. Norms are established in ranges and curves. An IQ of 85 and an IQ of 115 are both normal IQs. Most doctors and lawyers and cashiers and construction workers all have normal-range IQs.
"Teachers used to be professionals, and so many are not anymore. I'm 44, and when I was in school as a child, I don't remember ever hearing teacher raise his or her voice. It was considered low class to yell at children. Teachers used to think, speak, dress, and conduct themselves like doctors, lawyers, and bankers. It's not like that anymore."
Presidents, politicians, bankers and other public figures have fallen from grace as well. Watch the local news and see the scandals. It's NOT teachers. Anyway, I remember when the teacher was ALWAYS correct. Now when a child gets corrected the parent asks, "What did you do to the other kid?" It's not about the other kid. It's about YOUR kid! There is even a movie out called "The Bad Teacher." Its the latest hysteria whipped by our deranged American media always looking for ratings and PROFIT$$$$.
Do you know what the alternative to a profit-driven capitalist society? It's called socialism. Do you think the government is over-involved in education NOW? Do you think teachers don't make enough money NOW? Let the country get more socialist and less capitalist and see how you like it. There are so many posts where people post different opinions and stay intelligent and respectful, and then you post, and make all teachers look like idiots.
I don't think history supports the idea that there was ever a time when the teacher was always correct. It's one of those unsubstantiated claims made by every generation: "We used to be respectful, listen to our elders, appreciate hard work, unlike today's kids..." If you actually research the history of American public schools all the way to the beginning, you'll see the same sorts of problems we have now (problem parents, problem students, problem teachers, power struggles between local school boards, parents, teachers, academia, and government regulations, etc.)
Children used to be taught not to talk back to adults especially teachers. I think teachers get so frustrated with the manners of students in their classrooms that they may tend to raise their voice. Remember, it all begins at home.
Right, but I think manners are more lax in every aspect of society, not just education. Everyone used to be more polite. It's not like parents are saying, "hey kids, go be rude." But kids don't see manners displayed from their parents or their teachers, neighbors, or anyone else they encounter. They are also taught to stand up for themselves, that not all adults are good and not all adults are right. That has consequences. Some good consequences and some bad consequences. I think some people take a few of the worst students and their parents and then generalize that to explain a wide range of behaviors. But school failures on changes to society is a cop-out. There have always been and will always be changes in society. Every other service and industry has to adapt to those changes, and public education needs to do so as well.
It's all about money, folks. It always has been and it always will. The problem now is the state and feds control the money. Can someone tell me how much the ISTEP cost?
"An IQ of 85 and an IQ of 115 are both normal IQs."
Bullshit. The standard deviation is 12 points. To say 85 to 115 is normal is stretching it one hell of a lot. Back in the day, it was considered to be 95-105. Simplifying it, that means 63% of the population falls between those points. You had better look at where those points place someone on the percentile ranks. 100 is the 50% point. 88 is one standard deviation below 100, and places someone at the 18-19 percentile point, with the 85 IQ about the 15th percentile . Call that normal is you want to, but it means their cognitive ability is pretty far down. On the other side, the IQ of 115 places them about the 85th percentile. Not genius or truly gifted, but certainly capable of graduating from college and picking up a Master's in Education.
For what it's worth, the ISTEP "warm up quiz" was an IQ test. That was the one with the memory recall quiz with the nonsensical words and pictures. System wide, in IPS, the results were the tested poplulation had an IQ of 88. This was back in 2000, so I have no idea how it compares now, but my suspicion is that it hasn't climbed that far upwards since then.
First of all, I'm an IPS teacher, and I have never administered an IQ test to any student or been made privy to any student's IQ score, so I have a feeling you're bluffing. But regardless, many students who test low IQ in non-stimulating environments (home or school) aren't biologically deficient. If they're exposed to more cognitive stimulation later in life, it'll go up. I'm sure you're aware of the tons of research in the mobility of IQ in people without brain damage. There are countless stories of people who tested borderline retarded in school only to graduate from medical school or law school and/or test for much higher IQs later in life. It's a vicious circle when we provide children with limited educational opportunities because of their limited abilities, thereby limiting their abilities due to their limited opportunities.
Normally we never see the students IQ score. The ISTEP warm up was the IQ test, except they never told us that it was. I recognized it from some psych courses I had done. I questioned one of the school counselors who was in charge of testing, and had an interesting dialog about it. So I'm not bluffing. Memory recall is one of the components of intelligence testing. The ISTEP warm-up wasn't as accurate as a Stanford-Binet or the WAIC, but given the population size it was accurate enough for the purpose, and if you'll notice, it's not part of the ISTEP any longer.
I'm quite well aware of the limitations of IQ testing and the effects motivations and stimulation have on performance. I just failed an algebra student this year who has a high IQ but wouldn't do the work. I know he could do it if he bothered to pay attention, but he wouldn't do anything, and I didn't pass him. High IQ is no guarantee of success.
There are many students who can't be bothered to be motivated, and trying to draw them out is like trying to teach a pig to sing. All you do is expend a lot of energy and annoy the pig.
Some of my best performing student have been special ed students. On the positive side of that, they are used to having extra help and generally don't resent it. They have more structure and the resource classes help ensure that they do assignments. Practice, follow up homework, assessment, and reassessment will work when there is student cooperation.
Back on track though, many of those stories we all hear about are misdiagnosis and student boredom and apathy. I was certainly in that bunch way back in the 4th grade. The class was boring as hell and slower than molasses in January. I would act out and get placed in isolation in a room adjacent to the classroom. The room was used for textbook storage, so I would read books for the higher grades. I'm sure the teacher thought I was slow and a behavioral problem. I got what I wanted out of the deal; out of the class and into something more stimulating even if it was by myself. I doubt things have changed that much over the years. If someone is bored and feels they're wading through a sea of ignorance around them, they're not likely to respond in a positive fashion to the classroom environment or put much energy into what they perceive as a pointless test. It's up to the teacher to notice who has that glimmer of curiosity and draw it out.
"There are many students who can't be bothered to be motivated, and trying to draw them out is like trying to teach a pig to sing. All you do is expend a lot of energy and annoy the pig."
To me, this is one of the biggest problems with IPS. Not the unmotivated kids, but this attitude among teachers.
Imagine a group of college-educated teachers required to attend a workshop that none of the teachers think will be valuable. The leader of the workshop is someone with a low opinion of teachers who doesn't think the workshop will be valuable to the teachers either. The workshop is full of information, explained well, but minimal effort has been made at making the workshop interesting or meaningful, because the leader doesn't believe it's worth the effort to try to convince the teachers that the workshop is valuable or to alter the workshop to make it more valuable. What do you think will happen?
Civilized adults will act like punk kids. They will talk to each other, find reasons to leave the room, play with their cell phones, and daydream. If you put them in groups, they will sit around and discuss what a stupid waste of time the workshop is, and they will do just about everything but focus on the workshop. Throughout the workshop, they will do the absolute minimum they can do, and in the end, they will have gained no real education from the workshop, no matter how much information was presented.
And yet if we get this same attitude from inner city 10-year-olds, it's because they're stupid and because their parents are stupid, lazy, and/or immoral.
"To me, this is one of the biggest problems with IPS. Not the unmotivated kids, but this attitude among teachers. "
Really??? I can bet that 90% of the students in schools are there to socialize. That's it. They want to see their friends each day at school.The kids who excel and work hard for the ultimate achievement goals are out of the social loop.It's all about grades to them. 50% of the parent(s) think school is a daycare. Another sad fact is that this is happening all over, even in Lawrence and Pike (IPS west and IPS east). There is even a movie out about a "Bad Teacher." It's the latest media driven fad all for $$$. When I went home with a bad grade or a discipline issue I got my Bee-hind smacked. That doesn't happen these kids. Real accountability There's your education reform...not selling public schools off like a Toll Road to your campaign contributors.
You can't be serious. You think IPS kids would do better if they're parents hit them when they got bad grades? You truly, seriously believe that would be more effective than replacing ineffective teachers with teachers who are actually good with these kids. Teachers who can make education relevant to kids who are a little cynical about it, because in their families, there is no correlation between school success and financial success. I get angry at the teacher bashers, the ones who act like teaching is easy and any idiot can do it. But I get just as angry at the so-called teachers who bring down the profession by pretending that good teachers don't matter. Half of being a good teacher is marketing. You want to sell the kid on what you're trying to teach them. There are thousands of companies that successfully market to kids without parental involvement or support. We need to do more of that and less of the "in my day" crap. There is no excuse for not teaching the kids who come to class. None.
The physical-discipline-produces-good-students theory makes no sense because the kids who are physically disciplined the most get the worst grades and vice versa. It's almost impossible to find a straight-A student who is ever spanked, for grades or for any other reason. It's almost impossible to find an F student who has never been hit or spanked, for grades and school behavior, along with a million other things. Families don't believe in education because they've never seen it work. That's the difference between IPS and Hamilton County. It's not IQ or love or discipline. They think school is a waste of time because that's their reality -- the people who do good in school end up on welfare just like the ones who didn't. So we need something more than "you'll need this in college." Sure, that requires a little creativity and patience, and many IPS teachers step up to the plate. But so many do not.
@ ..So we need something more than "you'll need this in college."
Yeah, here's the answer to make math relevant to them; http://www.snopes.com/humor/question/mathtest.asp. I saw this little jewel years ago, and the story went that it was written by a frustrated math teacher. The teacher was promptly canned. That part of the story isn't verified by Snopes, but there for a while, several teachers every year were dumb enough to use it. I saw a copy of it from another teacher who was considering using it, hoping the humor would wake the students up. I advised him not to, and cautioned that it would make for a short career.
It's sad that it takes that sort of desperate thinking to try and motivate students.
I can see how students would find it amusing, but coming from adults, it seems pretty insensitive. I can see why a teacher would get reprimanded or fired. It could easily be taken as racist or stereotyping instead of just a joke. It's certainly possible to make education relevant to students without insulting them.
"It's certainly possible to make education relevant to students without insulting them."
I completely agree with this, but I do think administrators can have a wide-range influence on that. Right or wrong, many IPS teachers simply don't know anything about IPS students except what they lack that prevents them from belonging to middle class society. This is often made worse by a huge generation gap. So we get teachers trying to get kids to learn because that's what properly educated kids learn, and properly raised children do not challenge that. Instead, they need to be focusing on the practical benefits. The problem is I think many teachers are as clueless to the practical benefits of a high school education to an inner city kid as the inner city kid is. Hence, IPS. I think a solid administrator can go a long way in creating a positive environment and empowering teachers with the knowledge they need to teach kids who don't already value school.
IPS once had one of the best vocation education departments anywhere. Cleverly NCLB placed all the emphasis on COLLEGE and with busing and tax abatements the programs were cut. Now IVY Tech is laughing all the way to the bank providing the same education that public education should provide for kids.When kids see a REASON for learning based on a JOB they are motivated to do better.
"IPS once had one of the best vocation education departments anywhere."
I started with IPS teaching industrial electronics. It was designed to be a 2 year program, 3.5 credits each semester. Prerequisites were two years of algebra. This was not a "make your momma a wooden paper towel holder" shop class. It was a real technology class that would have prepared students to pick up a very decent job after graduation. Instead it was ruined by counselors assigning students to the class thinking it was a way to have them do something with their hands so they wouldn't drop out. It became a dumping ground for every numbskull that failed everything else. A third of the students were honestly interested in the class and the others were there for babysitting.
The two years of algebra were there for a reason, as the math was crucial. Instead they stuck kids in there that had trouble multiplying 2x3, much less deal with log functions and quadratic functions. The "best" part was when someone would transfer in from another school part way through a semester they would drop him into the class and they would be clueless.
It was a nightmare, and had I not burned some bridges behind me to take the job, I would have walked out in the first several weeks. It took until sometime in January or February before things settled down. Unfortunately it was mostly through attrition of students going to jail or expulsions that the class size was reduced enough to make it managable.
The students that wanted to learn made it worthwhile and kept me coming back. The worst disappointment I had from the experience was knowing that so much more could have been accomplished had the classes not been overloaded with students that had no business being there in the first place. The time spent dealing with them sucked all the life out of the classes. In an effort to find out what they wanted and what I could do to improve the class, I gave an anonymous survey to the students. Three-fourths of the students responded with "Get rid of the dummies".
The students who were there voluntarily saw the reason for learning and were motivated. Several were bright and articulate, yet had no interest in going to college. The class could have led to jobs paying $30K-40K right out of high school.
The students who were not there voluntarily were dumped into there by counselors who saw the class as an easy fix to scheduling problems (hey, here's a class he can stay put in for over 3 class periods!). These guys would deliberately destroy equipment just to watch thing break and shatter. Referrals did no good and I was pretty much on my own.
It was an interesting learning experience, and the things that happened could fill up a book. The thing learned from that year was that vocational education was being gutted on all fronts through deliberate intentions and through ignorance of what the program was for.
One of the amusing things that happened that year was the number of students that would come to me for help with their algebra classes and physics classes. Some of the students weren't even mine :-)
"The students who were not there voluntarily were dumped into there by counselors who saw the class as an easy fix to scheduling problems (hey, here's a class he can stay put in for over 3 class periods!). These guys would deliberately destroy equipment just to watch thing break and shatter. Referrals did no good and I was pretty much on my own.
It was an interesting learning experience, and the things that happened could fill up a book. The thing learned from that year was that vocational education was being gutted on all fronts through deliberate intentions and through ignorance of what the program was for."
Great comments. I see the same thing happening in the general ed setting...you have three or four students who want to learn and the rest are their to be entertained. It's not about race, tenure, or unions,..it's how society values an education. It doesn't take a Think Tank sucking up tax dollars with people who don't want to be in a classroom setting, to come up with solutions or buzzwords.
But every other industry in the world has to convince it's customers/clients of its value. Only education has the attitude that if people don't walk in the doors already valuing education, then nothing can or should be done to change their minds. Public education was not created for families who value education. Those families were doing fine without us. Public education was created for the families who didn't already value education. If we fail those students, then public education is a failed experiment, and we should stop funding it immediately.
baloney, I went to public schools, as did the other 1200 kids in my graduating class, 80% of us went on to college, and the majority finished. You've bought into all sorts of lies, misconceptions, and manipulation of facts. Often when we hear "facts" comparing US education to other countries and comparing education today to other time periods, we are comparing apples to oranges.
This is not to say public education is perfect, but what is...after all the Ivy League schools produced George Bush.
You obviously grew up in privilege. (The school statistics you site are unheard of in all but the most wealthy districts.) You and your peers would have been educated and gone to college even if there was no public education system. You need to brush up on your education history. Most children were being sufficiently educated before government schools opened up. Government schools opened up to teach poor children, immigrant children, and the children of drunkards and criminals. They haven't done a very good job so far, but thankfully the system is being reworked. Obviously the current system is virtually useless from a tax investment standpoint: We get nothing more than we did when we spent less money on public education and only slightly more than we did when we spent no money on public education. I know you're a fan of the "urban families are horrible" club, but urban families can be horrible for free, right? The idea that schools should collect education funding and not educate students is idiotic.
You're also wrong about global education comparisons comparing apples to oranges. That claim has been disputed countless times by every source imaginable, yet it continues to be repeated by the uninformed and/or dishonest.
I know you're a fan of the "urban families are horrible" club, but urban families can be horrible for free, right?
You know nothing. I graduated from a public high school in 1974, I lived in a middle to lower middle class suburb built by veterans returning from WWII and Korea, people who wanted better for their kids.
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/
An FYI my ninth great grandfather was the founder of Yale University. Everyone grandparents generation went on to higher education, grandmother Kent State Normal College class of 1918, grandfather engineering John Hopkins 1917, grandfather Union College Class of 1912, Grandmother secretarial school, all attended public schools prior to entering post secondary schools...all of the members of my parents generation also obtained college degrees, at public universities, after graduating from public schools. Any success my family has had is the result of the access to public education.
No IPS is not doing a good job of educating kid, but to throw baby, the bathwater, and the tub our is not the answer. It is time to clean out IPS and get rid of the people and policies not aimed at student success.
The fact that you had multiple generations of education parents only proves my point. Your family was very capable of making sure you were educated, with or without public schools. You were educated in public schools because they were available. But you would have been educated just as well without public schools because your parents valued education. They would have taught you or hired someone to teach you like people did before government schools. Your experiences taint you against the majority of the population who weren't raised with any particular admiration of formal schooling. Most people in this country don't graduate from college, and a generation ago, it was even more rare to go to college. Most people come from generations of people who value practical knowledge but not so much "book-learning." That's why so much emphasis has been put on differentiating instruction, relevancy, etc., rather than the traditional way of spouting off knowledge and shrugging your shoulders at anyone who didn't run to lap it up. How can you teach at IPS and not be aware of any of this? Part of our job is teaching the value of education. If we only teach those who already value it, we're failing a great number of students, particularly in a district like IPS where they're parents often can't teach them to value it (because they don't understand and haven't experienced it's value themselves.)
Are you serious? How on earth can anything I said be interpreted as arrogant or haughty in any way. If anything, it's the other way around. I respect and identify with the community I serve, where you feel you are above them and that if students only had families as perfect as yours, teaching them would be so much easier for you.
New to the conversation, but I actually think your 'holier than thou' attitude is a large part of why IPS fails. "It's not their fault." "They never had better", blah, blah, blah! Your revisionist history and blame the present generation smacks volumes. I'm sure the kids(and present society) just eat it up. Always good to have someone to blame it on, other than themselves. Thanks for giving them what they want, instead of what they need.
But science supports the theory that failing schools are too hostile to kids, not to nice. Science supports the theory that looking down on families destroys education opportunities. Not just one study or two. But libraries of research over the last 50 years. Kids who overcome poverty have warm relationships with teachers, teachers who respect and collaborate with the family and community, and teachers who differentiate instruction for student prior knowledge, interests, and ability. There is not a single study in the world that disputes this. There is not a single study that says the solution to failing urban schools is to do things exactly like middle-class all-white schools did in 1970 or whenever the hell you graduated from your perfect community high school where parents and children were all so perfect that it didn't matter if your teachers were idiot snobs who shouldn't legally be allowed within 20 feet of a child, let alone allowed to teach.
Never met someone so omnicient as you, who knows everything about everyone and their experiences and attitudes. Perhaps, which probably isn't in your vocabulary, your crusade is an ideology that doesn't exist. No one ever said that today's teachers are mean to kids and dislike them. I have seen teachers who don't want to teach, and they deserve to go elsewhere and good riddence, but to paint so wide a brushstroke...you are the end all and be all. Why didn't we annoint you sooner and find nirvana. For the rest of us mere mortals, maybe the answer it not that simple, maybe its more complex and has a myriad of causes and undoubtedly a myriad of fixes.
I do think I'm a better teacher and human being than you are. I also think I'm smarter. But I'm not arrogant or naive. I didn't come up with anything new. I simply learned from the people who did all the work and research, did what they said I should do, and have had the results they said I would have. So your defeatist attitude bugs the piss out of me. This is too important of a job to throw your hands up and say "I don't want to do things the right way. I want to do things the wrong way and then bitch and complain and start a blog and post on Facebook and write letters to the editor about how tough I have it and how powerless I am. What kind of teacher would I be if I didn't protest those kinds of comments? What kind of human would I be? If you're who I think you are, you'll retire next year, and we'll be done with you and your put-upon attitude. In the meantime, if you don't want my opinion about your destructive attitudes and practices, then don't post your thoughts publicly.
"That's why so much emphasis has been put on differentiating instruction,"
Maybe when the bigwigs at the state start to differentiate the ISTEP our of fairness to my child then we'll start to look at differentiating things...but they don't. They want failure so they can sell us off like that Toll Road. Thanks for voting for us..here's your reward$$$.
I don't think you understand what differentiating instruction means. It doesn't change the education objectives (which is what ISTEP measures). It just gears the assignments, readings, projects, etc. to the individual student instead of a one-size-fits-all approach. Differentiating instruction doesn't hurt ISTEP scores, it raises them. Students are more engaged in differentiated lessons and are more likely to learn the material.
From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if this isn't a matter of good teacher/bad teacher. From reading this, it sounds like maybe IPS doesn't have a very good continuing education program for it's teachers? Could the problem be that IPS teachers aren't being made aware of some of these things you are talking about? (differentiated instruction, respecting the community, etc.) It sounds like IPS could do more to help the older teachers get up-to-date and not have this animosity toward each other.
I say 3 strikes and you're out. One, I am not who you think I am (ready for retirement), although your attitude of you being the only one capable of having the correct answers and proper motivation speaks louder than anything I can ever say. I also believe your condescending demeanor, "I'm a better teacher" and I'm smarter than you", is exactly the sort of mentality I was trying to point out--thanks for making it easier. I have mentioned nothing about throwing up my hands and data proves this and that and as later outsider alluded to that I am unaware of updated pedagogies and continual education. Its your atrocious attitude about your colleagues that I find disgusting! Oh, sorry, you don't have colleagues and professional counterparts; only underlings who are worthy of your standing and robust panacea. I'm done with you--you already have your brain filled with your dogma and other could add nothing which would interest you.
Just to be clear, I don't think I'm better than most of my colleagues. I just think I'm better than you because of your posts here. I think your comments defy common sense, and obviously I'm not the only only one because "outsider" suggested you might need more professional development. You can be done with me all you want, but if I see nonsense publicly posted in the name of IPS teachers, obviously I'm going to post a rebuttal. Otherwise people would get the idea that most of us think like you, and that's not the case. It's actually very rare. So rare, that I thought I recognized you among the hundreds of IPS teachers based on your attitudes. Different teachers obviously have countless different views about countless different things, but I only know one IPS teacher who professes your particular brand of education philosophy, and she's an English "teacher" at Tech who is near retirement. If you're not her, and you're not near retirement, then it's a shame you'll have even more years to do your damage. Hopefully, at some point, you'll take your own advice, embrace the value of education, and educate yourself on educating kids, instead of blaming your teaching problems on poor kids, urban families, over-involved families, under-involved families, administrators, charter schools, private schools, corporate Republicans, bleeding heart liberals, ISTEP testing, pacing guides, benchmark tests, dress code enforcement, or whatever else you tell yourself is the reason you aren't more effective as a teacher.
I'm the outsider from above. I didn't intend to insult anyone and I apologize if it was taken that way. I'm not a teacher, just a parent. But the argument between the two teachers started because one teacher posted that schools can't be reformed unless families change their attitudes first. The other teacher seemed to take offense at this and has listed the ways that teachers can change attitudes in school. The first teacher took offense at the second teacher's offense and so on. I thought maybe the first teacher simply didn't know some of the things the second teacher was talking about. Apparently this is not the case. I don't think I understand the viewpoint of the first teacher enough to know for sure whether I agree with him/her or not, but regardless, I didn't intend to insult anyone. I've been fortunate that my kids have had great teachers in IPS, and they seem to follow many of the same things mentioned above about differentiation and making learning connections to real life. When I went to school (also in IPS) it wasn't like that at all. I'm sure I would have done better if it was.
"It doesn't change the education objectives (which is what ISTEP measures). It just gears the assignments, readings, projects, etc. to the individual student instead of a one-size-fits-all approach. Differentiating instruction doesn't hurt ISTEP scores, it raises them. Students are more engaged in differentiated lessons and are more likely to learn the material."
This sounds like a DOE response or some Think Tank. The ISTEP is VERY subjective on many open-ended responses.It does not differentiate anything. The special needs kid sees the same tricky question the other child sees. You are not allowed to change that.Students are "more engaged," sounds like more edu-speak which we get a lot from people in the DOE who don't want to be in a a classroom setting.The mere fact that the DOE won't allow schools to petition certain test items anymore is PROOF they are getting ready to label you "under-performing." More edu-speak. Do I need to differentiate that for ya!
From Matt Tully
ReplyDelete"Prediction: if state doesn't take over NW it won't take over any IPS school." Dr. White says Larry Yarrell in the best instructional leader in IPS. What a crock of shit.
He has to say that. Yarrell is his brother in law......
ReplyDeleteIPS needs to model a new magnet program after the Cristo Rey School.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.indystar.com/article/20110609/LOCAL1804/106090400/These-graduates-jump-start-world-work
Hold on Tech-Larry is coming your way!
ReplyDeleteLarry has to be the dumbest principal in years. Can't get his facts straight, or he lies like hell. He's going to yell at the wrong person someday, and he'll get his George Jefferson act shoved down his throat. I have no respect for the guy at all. What's amazing is how he acts pious and says the Good Lord placed him here to reach these students. He could start by showing a little more respect to them, and then a lot more respect for his teachers.
ReplyDeleteYarrel stated in a meeting that he was chosen to go to Northwest by White because he was a bully. What an ass!
ReplyDeleteNo this is what White wants...bullies...it is exactly how he views teachers, a group of people (cows) who need to be pushed around and lead by a bully (bull). We are little more than dumb animals in his eyes...If there is a God he needs to take a look at what is going on in IPS.
ReplyDeleteWhen I think about how God wants us to treat people I don't think of bullying, I think of the parable of the good Samaritan. Maybe Yarrel needs to close his mouth, read that parable and pray for some wisdom in regard to his treatment of teachers and students. He hasn't lifted anyone up.
Larry is the biggest wimp in IPS. He gets rocks off by kissing ass. Again, wimp, pussy, wuss, coward, or prison trick. They all fix him.
ReplyDeleteSome people feel lifted up when they step on other folks. Seems like that's the case here.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone heard about a requirement for Manual teachers to set their schedules between 9 AM and 9 PM for next school year? I received this info from an old roommate who works there, but I didn't want to ask anything else.
@"No this is what White wants...bullies"
ReplyDeleteIf you don't know the difference between lead and led, perhaps you are a "dumb animal." And I don't care what you teach. You are presumably a college graduate and a citizen of an English speaking country.
"They all fix him."
ReplyDeleteSo, Larry can't reproduce?
@We are little more than dumb animals in his eyes.
ReplyDeleteRemember last August? We mules were to shake off the dirt (read shit)and step up. I wish he had warned us all to get hip-waders, blinders, and nose clips. How prophetic/pathetic.
BTW, I LOVED Gary Varvel's depiction of White, Bennett, Kennedy and Ballard in today's Star Editorial cartoon. Varvel drew what's happening to our system. His picture truly equates to more than a thousand words.
http://blogs.indystar.com/varvelblog/2011/06/09/ips-problems/
ReplyDelete"fix" should be "fixed." Sorry for the typo. I post to the blog via my blackberry so IPS and IPS-BS can't trace.
ReplyDelete"fit" might have been a better choice.
ReplyDeleteBTW, if you truly believe you can't be traced, you're an idiot. Your Blackberry has GPS, which is like hacking a trail through the bushes. Your cell provider follows and records your connections with cell towers. All texts are saved on your provider's mainframe, and have been successfully used as evidence in trials. Nothing is ever deleted (no, you only took it off your screen. It's still on your hard drive or in your provider's storage). Your IP (Internet Protocol) address is localized, just like your area/zip codes. Anyone with a tiny bit of programming knowledge can acquire your information in minutes.
How do I know this? My credit card number was stolen when I unwittingly used a tampered credit card reader (called a skimmer) on a gas pump. Chase called me 30 minutes after my card was used online to purchase a thousand bucks of computer equipment. The electronics company also called to verify my purchase, as they had my name, address, and phone number. The reason for both calls? The IP address used to make the order was in Texas, but my IP address is in Greenwood.
Big brother is watching. Don't kid yourself. Your free speech is protected, but not on school equipment OR ON SCHOOL TIME. Don't read or post it in or at school. IPS tracks you every time you use your badge to enter school or use an elevator. You signed an technology-use agreement earlier this school year. Violation of this agreement can be used to terminate an employee.
I would not be surprised if/when IPS uses this to thin our ranks.
Paranoid? Nope. Informed? Yep.
I agree with the above post. That's a perfect way to get your Wiener into BIG trouble.
ReplyDeleteTechnology will be his undoing.
Did you see the five companies being considered for our takeover? Only Edison has a local track record.
ReplyDeleteThe article did point out that many of these firms publish textbook series and/or standardized tests.
(Indy Star, Sunday, June 12, front section)
It's all about the money, what is going to happen to the students they expell from school? Who takes them in during the "take overs", IPS?
ReplyDeleteSo, here is what I don't get. You want IPS to get tough on discipline . . . to create orderly environments where teachers can teach and students can learn. So, why do you care what happens to students who are expelled? By law, those students are not guaranteed to attend IPS or any other school corporation. If they are expelled from a "Turnaround", there is no distinction in Indiana law that entitles them to just go and enroll in IPS. This is equally true of kids expelled from charters. If bad kids are kicked out of public schools (non-privates) and IPS takes them in, that is a choice IPS makes. The problem then is not with the school that sets the standard, but rather with the school that refuses to uphold it.
ReplyDeleteExpelled students have been given due process, and are no longer entitled to public school enrollment until the end of their expulsion.
Jackie Greenwood ruined Arlington by accepting students who'd been expelled from township schools. She also refused to uphold any behavior standards for these expelled students once enrolled at Arlington.
ReplyDeleteJust imagine, she's now the Executive Director of Secondary Education for the IPS! She couldn't manage one high school; now she's supposed to be managing all the high schools. What a joke!
I was a bit confused by the Indy Star article. Would the takeover occur in August (2011) or in August of 2012? I thought it was supposed to right away?
ReplyDeleteThat article is confusing, but the one from the 9th says August 2012.
ReplyDelete"But Bennett is in contract talks with outside organizations -- both companies and nonprofit groups -- under which they could take control of failing schools in the fall of 2012 after a transition year."
"Your free speech is protected, but not on school equipment OR ON SCHOOL TIME. Don't read or post it in or at school. IPS tracks you every time you use your badge to enter school or use an elevator. You signed an technology-use agreement earlier this school year. Violation of this agreement can be used to terminate an employee."
ReplyDeleteYet we work in a district that can't get old outdated Palm pilots to work correctly or to print Dibels data accurately.Brother Scantron messes up district Benchmarks from time to time. Still using Windows XP and Office 03 and servers shut down all to frequently. Hardly a bastion of technology and wonder compared to most.
If you are chosen to be an educator in one of the Turnaround schools, you will be employed by that organization, not IPS. You will be bound by their set salary and working conditions, and lose all tenure/seniority/benefits earned in IPS.
ReplyDeleteShould you decide to return to IPS after your stint with the takeover institution, you come back as a first year teacher with no seniority.
Oops.
That's not true. It would be just like if you came to IPS from another district. They count all of your years as a teacher.
ReplyDeleteNow the pay scale/range at the Turnaround School might be completely different. But you have no way of knowing whether it will be better or worse. You're just fearmongering.
@Should you decide to return to IPS after your stint with the takeover institution, you come back as a first year teacher with no seniority.
ReplyDelete_______________________________________________
This is blatantly incorrect and is pandering to fears within the teaching ranks.
Thank you Linda Davis! Very smart woman who surrounds herself with professionals who do their jobs plus! Now, all you haters of BRMHS, keep on hating as WE are only going to get better!
ReplyDelete@Should you decide to return to IPS after your stint with the takeover institution, you come back as a first year teacher with no seniority.
ReplyDeleteActually, it's only partially incorrect. You will have had a "break in service", which puts you back at zero years as both building and IPS years of service. Accepting a temporary contract also creates a break.
As far as salary, no one knows what's going to happen. Most districts will pay only ten years experience to a returning certified staff member, which is a window of opportunity to our youngest (read years of experience) educators.
What are you talking about? I know several people who have left the district because of spouse transfers, etc., and came back, and all of their years in and out of the district were counted, even if they had more than 10 years.
ReplyDeleteLet me clarify -- they taught in other districts while they were gone, and all of their years of teaching were counted.
ReplyDeleteYes, the IPS salary schedule is based on years of teaching experience, not years of experience in IPS. Your pay would be exactly the same if you taught 15 years at IPS, 2 years at a turnaround school or any other school, and then came back to IPS as if you had taught the entire 17 years at IPS.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe you guys are focusing on the pay scale instead of the fact that the turnaround schools do not have to keep current IPS teachers, and IPS wouldn't have to rehire them after they'd taught at a turnaround school.
ReplyDelete@Most districts will pay only ten years experience to a returning certified staff member, which is a window of opportunity to our youngest (read years of experience) educators.
ReplyDeleteIPS doesn't HAVE to rehire you. If you, with your 17 years of experience, are sitting next to a newly-minted educator, who do you think IPS will hire?
However, RIFs (Reductions in Force) go by years of district seniority, in addition to other criteria. A break in service restarts your district seniority at zero, regardless of your years of teaching experience.
Depending on which organization gets the turnover assignment, only 1/2 of the staff has to be licensed, like a charter.
How could working for a turnaround organization possibly be any more stressful than working in IPS?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure the senior-most secondary-ed teachers will stay with IPS. The problem is that teachers who are usually safe from RIFs won't be, and those teachers will likely take jobs with the turnaround schools if offered. If they aren't offered jobs at the turnaround school, then I guess they can choose whether to get other jobs or wait to be recalled.
ReplyDeleteI agree it can't be worse.
ReplyDeleteSure it can. We could be in Gary. 400 educators just received RIFs. At least we knew in enough time to clean out our desks.
ReplyDeleteOr Providence, Rhode Island. All 400 teachers were laid off. Now they have to grovel for 300 jobs.
ReplyDeletehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110613/us_yblog_thelookout/providence-teachers-in-speed-date-like-interview-process
From Yahoo Article: NOTE THE MAYOR'S ROLE
ReplyDeleteA computer system will try to match teachers' and principals' preferences after the brief interviews. Teachers who still don't have a job at the end of the process can apply to teach at some of the worst-performing schools in the state, according to the Providence Journal. The lucky teachers who managed to get hired will start in the fall. Providence teachers have protested since the layoff notices first went out in March, arguing that the city needs to spend more money on public education. Earlier this month, a small group of teachers graded papers in a local mall over the weekend, to raise awareness about the long hours they put in after school gets out.
The city's mayor Angel Taveras said he was forced to close five schools and dismiss about 25 percent of the city's teachers because of the $110 million budget shortfall he's facing next year. But teachers are also angry that Taveras is allowing five Achievement First charter schools to open up in the area. The schools will serve nearly 2,000 kids and are partly funded by private foundation money.
So you think those 2000 kids should be forced to go to a failing school that has not served them well in the past (or they'd still be there) just so no teachers ever lose their jobs? Because I'm a teacher, and I like job security as much as the next person, but not at the expense of the students.
ReplyDeleteGary received those RIF notices in April.
ReplyDeleteIt is inaccurate that Turnaround Schools will not have to certify teachers. They won't have to bargain, but they still need certified teachers. So, the killer part is they don't have to hire ANY of the existing teachers in the building. Not half, not a third, not one.
ReplyDeleteIf I worked in those buildings (and I wanted to continue), I would be trying to find a way to be whatever the new administration needs to turn the school around instead of pouting about my years of seniority. But, I don't work in those buildings, so I am writing you philosophical opinions at 10:30 at night . . .
"So you think those 2000 kids should be forced to go to a failing school that has not served them well in the past."
ReplyDeleteDepends what criteria you use for "failing." Schools do more than produce an ISTEP number. I once had a student who I retained come back to me years later and say that she learned more in my classroom that year than at any time. Most of it was about life and about a white girl growing up in a black school district. She is doing well now. In the state's eyes we "failed" that student. She disagrees. She says she wasn't ready. The homes are failing these kids...not the schools.The schools should be given every resource and MORE than any public funded school district to help these kids where the homes can't. Instead they'll cut the most experienced teachers using bogus methods and say they "improved" things..typical big business solution.
If a firefighter comes to your burning house and does some excellent landscaping but doesn't put out the fire in your house, he has failed. It doesn't matter who started the fire or if it could have been prevented, the firefighter has failed. It doesn't matter how well of a job he did with the landscaping. He isn't being paid by the state to landscape. He's paid to put out fires. If he can't or won't do that, then we should find someone who can. If nobody can, we should stop funding fire departments.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the above post. However, do not leave out the police officers. They are implemented by the state to prevent crime. If they cannot prevent it from happening then they need to be replaced by those who can. Again, if nobody can, then we should stop funding police departments or triple fund a private organization from outside to do the job.
ReplyDeleteNobody's triple funding a private organization. But if a private organization can outperform the state police for the same money, I'm all for it.
ReplyDeleteBut if a private organization can outperform the state police for the same money, I'm all for it.
ReplyDeleteBeware of unintended consequences, think about the privatization of trash pick up, it was a little cheaper in the short run...but look at all the former middleclass people who no longer had middle class jobs (benefits, health insurance, vacation) all replaced by minimum wage workers...and the middle income workers really had no opportunity to keep their jobs once they were privatized because they would have needed to by their own trash truck $100,000. And unlike city owned vehicles commercial operators wouldn't put show shovel blades on their trucks, so we ended up paying for both services. I think (guess) that in the long run we really did not save any money, but we did manage to put more money in the hands of the wealthy.
Also to the person who only defines education in terms of test scores, you are so confused about what it means to be educated. Remember both Einstein and Edison were, in their childhood, declared retarded and put out of school. Try taking a look at this piece, and see what you think...http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
That makes sense if you're talking about homeschooling your child instead of sending him to school. But I can teach my kid creativity and good citizenship. I send him to school to learn academics.
ReplyDeletefox59.com
ReplyDeleteMore education reforms coming for Indiana high school students
If you thought the recent round of education reforms had the state divided, wait until you hear what's next. Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels (R) and State Superintendent of Public Instruction Dr. Tony Bennett (R) are pushing for a change in the way students graduate high school.
By News Staff
Fox59
12:17 PM EDT, June 14, 2011
Indianapolis
If you thought the recent round of education reforms had the state divided, wait until you hear what's next. Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels (R) and State Superintendent of Public Instruction Dr. Tony Bennett (R) are pushing for a change in the way students graduate high school.
If the legislation passes, it would guarantee high school grads know the information and skills needed for college or career-based training. The effort is still in the early stages and won't be proposed for a few years. If passed, it would be the first time a state would use test scores to determine career readiness.
Copyright © 2011, WXIN-TV
Yeah, this whole thing where teachers say education isn't about academics or being employable is a bunch of garbage. Public education is absolutely worthless if it doesn't teach academics and how to apply that academic knowledge in the job market.
ReplyDeleteAlso, we wouldn't need standardized tests except that teachers can't be relied upon to be honest. We have thousands of students who have never gotten lower than a C who don't know anything about anything. That's not the failure of the parents or the failure of the students. That's the failure of the teacher/school system.
ReplyDeleteNot to worried about two years from now. Mitch and Tony will both be looooong gone. Politics influencing educational decisions is way out of line. Politicians have NO idea what is going on in the classroom and one or two visits just don't cut it.
ReplyDeleteNot every student is nor should be college bound. Heck many of them have decided themselves by their freshmen year that they hate school or at least waking up and showing up everyday. That is no ones fault but their own. Nevertheless by the end of a student's freshmen year their next two years should be college prep courses or tech/noncollege/career classes. There never has nor there ever will be a school that graduates 100 percent of their students who want/desire to go to college and we adults who are actually involved in teaching are aware of this. Politicians live in a world that they set educational standards to glorify themselves in front of their peers and are in no way shape or form qualified to make BIG educational decisions. Leave that to those who have the students at their best interest and not politicians who are trying to boost their name, personal agenda or beat up on the opposite party
Students have all year to earn a C. One/one half hours to pass a test. A test is written. Earning grades in a classroom is not only based on written work, but includes participation, labs, in school and out of school work and so much more. So comparing a students year long/or semester long C to a test that doesn't allow the test to have any room for error or discussion is simply a impossible yet we "label" all a student is by one test score. Absolutely pathetic.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I would like to comment on. Bennett has downplayed the teacher licenses by allowing nonpublic/charter etc., schools hire teachers who are not licensed.
I was at the doctors the other day and we got into this discussion.
My doctor said to me. Well I certainly hope that people who are ill have the common sense to seek a license physicians care and opinion. He asked, why would anyone want to send their child to a school that does not have a license teacher teaching their child? We wouldn't want an unlicensed electrician wiring our home would we?
Makes perfect sense to me
You think education reform is going to end if Mitch and Tony aren't in office? Really?
ReplyDeleteAnd the difference between a degree in your subject area and an education degree is very similar to the difference between an M.D. degree and an D.O. degree. They're both specialized degrees and which was is better depends on who you ask.
Many degree as in the medical, dental and teaching fields require clinical experience. This is an extremely valuable asset to any professional under the guidance of mentors and those with more experience. "Teaching" experience before one takes over a class requires observation, clinical and hands on experience. I believe most professionals appreciate the ability to learn from clinical experiences...something those who only have subject area degrees may not have or get.
ReplyDeleteI am all for reform don't get me wrong. I simply don't believe how the politicians are going about it is the way to go. They have turned education into political battlefields amongst politicians.
I hope the misguided person who believes that poor kids are to be faulted for not caring about school as high school freshman is not serving young people. You give educators a bad name. You should get out of urban schools. When I worked with private school kids, no one expected them to have great ambitions or incredible skills. We had genius kids and special education kids, and they were all supposed to be headed to college. As their teachers, we couldn't write them off. How dare you suggest that your students shouldn't have every advantage you have had in life by virtue of your education. I am glad this forum is electronic, because I am sure that I would not be able to contain myself in person. Please have the courage to walk away from inner-city children and stop stealing their money (our tax dollars) from them by not providing them with the level of service they deserve. How wretched . . .
ReplyDeleteI agree if you're comparing two brand new teachers, one with clinical experience, one without, then the one with the education degree might have an edge for the first few months of teaching, but after that what's the difference?
ReplyDeleteNo one said not every child shouldn't be given a fair education. As a teacher you should know that students futures go in many many directions. A student may hate school their freshmen year and love it by their senior year. They could switch to another program. Shame on you for thinking that I don't care about inner city poor youth. I am realistic. If you think America was built or is still being run by 100 percent college grads you aren't living in reality. Why is IVTC's enrollement soaring? Their is more than a 4 year college and their are more than poor inner city youths attending trade schools. Students from all backgrounds aren't going just to the four year colleges and don't need to. Career schools and trade schools offer them educational degrees that we need as a unit to complete the big picture.
ReplyDeleteWe ARE leaving children behind because those who aren't truly college material are being ignored by those who think everyone is college bound.
We need to open up opportunities for all students and help guide them on their path whether it be a four year college, tech school, internship, or the work force.
So get off your high horse cause I bet I work better with inner city kids than you could ever imagine because I don't downplay or ignore them so go teach in your sheltered world.
I will never walk away from inner youth because I was one so get over yourself
sorry about the type--their=there
ReplyDeleteGawd forbid if the typo police point that out lol
"You think education reform is going to end if Mitch and Tony aren't in office? Really?"
ReplyDeleteThat's not reform. That's paying off the for-profit turnaround corporations and other gimmick education think tanks that paid to get you elected. TRUE reform would make homes and students more accountable and put money into pre-school education where the gap starts. The big mistake Mitch and Tony made and the rest of the GOP is that educators got them elected. They voted for job creation and less government control in November. They got neither. I'm sure the next few elections they will not be duped again.
Are you at all informed about national politics. Are you familiar with the policies of your Democrat president or his Democratic Secretary of Education? Are you familiar with the policies of the previous Democrat Indianapolis Mayor in regard to charter schools? You can blame it on the homes all you want, but if that's the case, then we need to drastically reduce education spending back to the levels it was 20 years ago because the money isn't improving education. Taxpayers aren't going to keep paying for nothing. The reason education funding rose so much was because the school establishment said it would help improve schools and improved schools would improve the economy and reduce crime. It hasn't help. We need to either improve schools or cut education spending back to where it was when the achievement stagnation started. I prefer improving schools.
ReplyDeleteThere are important gaps in resources between many of the wealthier jurisdictions and many of the poorer jurisdictions. And money matters in education--there's no getting around that. However, many of the gaps in per pupil expenditures between urban districts and their surrounding suburban districts have been closed in the past ten years, not eliminated in all cases, but closed substantially in many cases. [This is] in part because a higher percentage of the expenditures in the poorer districts are now being picked up by the states or even by the federal government through its compensatory education programs.
ReplyDeleteSo, while money matters, it's not the only thing that matters. School safety and discipline matter a lot. Teacher quality matters a lot. Support from parents and the surrounding community matters a lot. And a culture of learning matters a lot. And all of those things have to be attended to at the same time that we continue to focus on the existing and remaining gaps in resources
Back in the day school was school. You came, paid attention, brought your lunch, took home books, studied and did homework at night. Those things have become extinct. Teachers can't follow the students home to make sure they do their homework, go to bed, have a healthy supper and breakfast etc., yet we have burdened the schools with so much more than they were initially intended. When a student gets support from outside of the school everything falls into place.
It's kind of a chicken or egg thing though. Teachers used to be professionals, and so many are not anymore. I'm 44, and when I was in school as a child, I don't remember ever hearing teacher raise his or her voice. It was considered low class to yell at children. Teachers used to think, speak, dress, and conduct themselves like doctors, lawyers, and bankers. It's not like that anymore. I think society as a whole is much more casual, much more comfortable with yelling and carrying on, much less concerned with proper decorum, and kids are raised to not be intimidated. That all has its good points and bad points. I think it's more realistic to change education to adapt to changes in society rather than attempt to change society to adapt to education.
ReplyDeleteThey also didn't used to send home homework kids couldn't do on their own. I graduated in 1991 and I never had a homework assignment that my parents had to help with. The far majority of the homework my kids bring home requires parental assistance. That's fine for me, but it sets up a lot of families for failure who weren't set up for failure in the past.
ReplyDeleteAre you kidding me? I graduated from high school in the seventies. I can remember mom calling my teacher all the time because she didn't understand my homework and neither did I. Luckily the teacher would give me some extra one on one time with explanations. Lets not forget the famous science projects where it was really a parent vs. parent contest lol. As far as teachers raising their voices my teachers yelled constantly. I can remember one male teacher who would line us up on the playground and yell at us til we were shaking. Guess we can dispute the good old days vs. today all day long lol
ReplyDeleteI graduated high school in the 80s. I don't remember needing my parents for homework either. My 3rd grade science project was about solvents and I used stuff from the kitchen and never even mentioned anything to my parents about it. It never occurred to me that parents would do the projects until the fair. Luckily it was only a handful of parents, not a majority like it would be today, so I wasn't embarrassed or anything. As a teacher, I do not assign homework that needs parental involvement.
ReplyDeleteAs for the yelling, I remember a couple of yellers, but most didn't yell. Even the teachers who paddled kids didn't tend to yell. I don't yell either, but I do think it's more common now than it was in the past.
I teach at a charter school, and they say that research backs up the trend about homework requiring more help and that it increases the achievement gap between privileged and disadvantaged students. If we give homework, we are supposed to allow enough time for the student to review it and for us to answer any questions they might have.
ReplyDeleteHomework for my special ed self-contained classes is something I learned wasn't always a good thing. Most of the kiddos ended up just practicing and ultimately reinforcing their errors.
ReplyDeleteOver the years, I've had more than a few moms request word searches be sent home because they (the moms) like to do the word searches themselves. Kinda sad but true. Figuring that if the moms wanted word searches for themselves, then I'd honor their requests and even design some computer generated words searches.
One of my old principals used to say "everyone believes there are a few retarded folks and everyone else, but the truth is half the people are below average." I grew up in a well off area and there were indeed a few retarded kids I went to school with, out of a school of 2400, there were eight, three downs kids, two cp, and three with no clear cause. All of my parents friends and our neighbors had college degrees. My school had a 98% graduation rate and everyone I knew went on to college and graduated.
ReplyDeleteThen I started teaching in inner city schools, and discovered what the principal said was true, lots of special ed parents. Most students with mild mental handicaps grow up to be regular people, not residents of group homes. And they become parents, and they really love their children, but are they able to help them with complex homework...no way. Reading is great homework for these kids, "read to your parent". The parent still stays involved without the risk of embarrassment.
How do we as a teaching staff step up and take back our schools? I watched Waiting for Superman the other night and wondered this after the show ended. Have we given up? I'm not being sarcastic or heartless, just wondering what we need to do. Last week I attended the 8 Step Training process and one thing that is crucial is informing kids of their scores on ISTEP+, SRI, DIBELS, etc. and explaining it to them. For me I am not always good about explaining test results to kids and helping them set goals. Is that one piece that we could do better as a teaching staff? Sorry to ramble....
ReplyDeleteThere's an enormous range in between mentally retarded and 98% graduating from college. Almost all of Indiana falls in between those two extremes. Only 16% of Indiana freshmen graduate from college, so you obviously went to a very privileged high school. Also, most IPS do not have low IQ. There might be more special ed students here than in Carmel, but there is no objective reason for IPS to do poorly. Almost all of them would do better in different families, different neighborhoods, and/or different schools.
ReplyDeleteYour principal was an idiot. Most people are "average." There are a few very smart people and a few very dumb people, but 95% of the population is somewhere in between. Saying "half of the population is below average" shows a lack of understanding of statistics and intelligence. It's like saying since the average 9-year-old weighs 60 pounds that someone who weighs 58 is underweight, and a child that weighs 52 is overweight. Norms are established in ranges and curves. An IQ of 85 and an IQ of 115 are both normal IQs. Most doctors and lawyers and cashiers and construction workers all have normal-range IQs.
ReplyDeleteIn my example above, "52 is overweight" is supposed to be "62 is overweight."
ReplyDelete"Teachers used to be professionals, and so many are not anymore. I'm 44, and when I was in school as a child, I don't remember ever hearing teacher raise his or her voice. It was considered low class to yell at children. Teachers used to think, speak, dress, and conduct themselves like doctors, lawyers, and bankers. It's not like that anymore."
ReplyDeletePresidents, politicians, bankers and other public figures have fallen from grace as well. Watch the local news and see the scandals. It's NOT teachers. Anyway, I remember when the teacher was ALWAYS correct. Now when a child gets corrected the parent asks, "What did you do to the other kid?" It's not about the other kid. It's about YOUR kid! There is even a movie out called "The Bad Teacher." Its the latest hysteria whipped by our deranged American media always looking for ratings and PROFIT$$$$.
Dear Ms. Bender,
ReplyDeleteDo you know what the alternative to a profit-driven capitalist society? It's called socialism. Do you think the government is over-involved in education NOW? Do you think teachers don't make enough money NOW? Let the country get more socialist and less capitalist and see how you like it. There are so many posts where people post different opinions and stay intelligent and respectful, and then you post, and make all teachers look like idiots.
I don't think history supports the idea that there was ever a time when the teacher was always correct. It's one of those unsubstantiated claims made by every generation: "We used to be respectful, listen to our elders, appreciate hard work, unlike today's kids..." If you actually research the history of American public schools all the way to the beginning, you'll see the same sorts of problems we have now (problem parents, problem students, problem teachers, power struggles between local school boards, parents, teachers, academia, and government regulations, etc.)
ReplyDeleteChildren used to be taught not to talk back to adults especially teachers. I think teachers get so frustrated with the manners of students in their classrooms that they may tend to raise their voice. Remember, it all begins at home.
ReplyDeleteRight, but I think manners are more lax in every aspect of society, not just education. Everyone used to be more polite. It's not like parents are saying, "hey kids, go be rude." But kids don't see manners displayed from their parents or their teachers, neighbors, or anyone else they encounter. They are also taught to stand up for themselves, that not all adults are good and not all adults are right. That has consequences. Some good consequences and some bad consequences. I think some people take a few of the worst students and their parents and then generalize that to explain a wide range of behaviors. But school failures on changes to society is a cop-out. There have always been and will always be changes in society. Every other service and industry has to adapt to those changes, and public education needs to do so as well.
ReplyDeleteIt's all about money, folks. It always has been and it always will. The problem now is the state and feds control the money. Can someone tell me how much the ISTEP cost?
ReplyDelete"An IQ of 85 and an IQ of 115 are both normal IQs."
ReplyDeleteBullshit. The standard deviation is 12 points. To say 85 to 115 is normal is stretching it one hell of a lot. Back in the day, it was considered to be 95-105. Simplifying it, that means 63% of the population falls between those points. You had better look at where those points place someone on the percentile ranks. 100 is the 50% point. 88 is one standard deviation below 100, and places someone at the 18-19 percentile point, with the 85 IQ about the 15th percentile . Call that normal is you want to, but it means their cognitive ability is pretty far down. On the other side, the IQ of 115 places them about the 85th percentile. Not genius or truly gifted, but certainly capable of graduating from college and picking up a Master's in Education.
For what it's worth, the ISTEP "warm up quiz" was an IQ test. That was the one with the memory recall quiz with the nonsensical words and pictures. System wide, in IPS, the results were the tested poplulation had an IQ of 88. This was back in 2000, so I have no idea how it compares now, but my suspicion is that it hasn't climbed that far upwards since then.
First of all, I'm an IPS teacher, and I have never administered an IQ test to any student or been made privy to any student's IQ score, so I have a feeling you're bluffing. But regardless, many students who test low IQ in non-stimulating environments (home or school) aren't biologically deficient. If they're exposed to more cognitive stimulation later in life, it'll go up. I'm sure you're aware of the tons of research in the mobility of IQ in people without brain damage. There are countless stories of people who tested borderline retarded in school only to graduate from medical school or law school and/or test for much higher IQs later in life. It's a vicious circle when we provide children with limited educational opportunities because of their limited abilities, thereby limiting their abilities due to their limited opportunities.
ReplyDeleteNormally we never see the students IQ score. The ISTEP warm up was the IQ test, except they never told us that it was. I recognized it from some psych courses I had done. I questioned one of the school counselors who was in charge of testing, and had an interesting dialog about it. So I'm not bluffing. Memory recall is one of the components of intelligence testing. The ISTEP warm-up wasn't as accurate as a Stanford-Binet or the WAIC, but given the population size it was accurate enough for the purpose, and if you'll notice, it's not part of the ISTEP any longer.
ReplyDeleteI'm quite well aware of the limitations of IQ testing and the effects motivations and stimulation have on performance. I just failed an algebra student this year who has a high IQ but wouldn't do the work. I know he could do it if he bothered to pay attention, but he wouldn't do anything, and I didn't pass him. High IQ is no guarantee of success.
There are many students who can't be bothered to be motivated, and trying to draw them out is like trying to teach a pig to sing. All you do is expend a lot of energy and annoy the pig.
Some of my best performing student have been special ed students. On the positive side of that, they are used to having extra help and generally don't resent it. They have more structure and the resource classes help ensure that they do assignments. Practice, follow up homework, assessment, and reassessment will work when there is student cooperation.
Back on track though, many of those stories we all hear about are misdiagnosis and student boredom and apathy. I was certainly in that bunch way back in the 4th grade. The class was boring as hell and slower than molasses in January. I would act out and get placed in isolation in a room adjacent to the classroom. The room was used for textbook storage, so I would read books for the higher grades. I'm sure the teacher thought I was slow and a behavioral problem. I got what I wanted out of the deal; out of the class and into something more stimulating even if it was by myself. I doubt things have changed that much over the years. If someone is bored and feels they're wading through a sea of ignorance around them, they're not likely to respond in a positive fashion to the classroom environment or put much energy into what they perceive as a pointless test. It's up to the teacher to notice who has that glimmer of curiosity and draw it out.
"There are many students who can't be bothered to be motivated, and trying to draw them out is like trying to teach a pig to sing. All you do is expend a lot of energy and annoy the pig."
ReplyDeleteTo me, this is one of the biggest problems with IPS. Not the unmotivated kids, but this attitude among teachers.
Imagine a group of college-educated teachers required to attend a workshop that none of the teachers think will be valuable. The leader of the workshop is someone with a low opinion of teachers who doesn't think the workshop will be valuable to the teachers either. The workshop is full of information, explained well, but minimal effort has been made at making the workshop interesting or meaningful, because the leader doesn't believe it's worth the effort to try to convince the teachers that the workshop is valuable or to alter the workshop to make it more valuable. What do you think will happen?
Civilized adults will act like punk kids. They will talk to each other, find reasons to leave the room, play with their cell phones, and daydream. If you put them in groups, they will sit around and discuss what a stupid waste of time the workshop is, and they will do just about everything but focus on the workshop. Throughout the workshop, they will do the absolute minimum they can do, and in the end, they will have gained no real education from the workshop, no matter how much information was presented.
And yet if we get this same attitude from inner city 10-year-olds, it's because they're stupid and because their parents are stupid, lazy, and/or immoral.
"To me, this is one of the biggest problems with IPS. Not the unmotivated kids, but this attitude among teachers. "
ReplyDeleteReally??? I can bet that 90% of the students in schools are there to socialize. That's it. They want to see their friends each day at school.The kids who excel and work hard for the ultimate achievement goals are out of the social loop.It's all about grades to them. 50% of the parent(s) think school is a daycare. Another sad fact is that this is happening all over, even in Lawrence and Pike (IPS west and IPS east). There is even a movie out about a "Bad Teacher." It's the latest media driven fad all for $$$. When I went home with a bad grade or a discipline issue I got my Bee-hind smacked. That doesn't happen these kids. Real accountability There's your education reform...not selling public schools off like a Toll Road to your campaign contributors.
You can't be serious. You think IPS kids would do better if they're parents hit them when they got bad grades? You truly, seriously believe that would be more effective than replacing ineffective teachers with teachers who are actually good with these kids. Teachers who can make education relevant to kids who are a little cynical about it, because in their families, there is no correlation between school success and financial success. I get angry at the teacher bashers, the ones who act like teaching is easy and any idiot can do it. But I get just as angry at the so-called teachers who bring down the profession by pretending that good teachers don't matter. Half of being a good teacher is marketing. You want to sell the kid on what you're trying to teach them. There are thousands of companies that successfully market to kids without parental involvement or support. We need to do more of that and less of the "in my day" crap. There is no excuse for not teaching the kids who come to class. None.
ReplyDeleteThe physical-discipline-produces-good-students theory makes no sense because the kids who are physically disciplined the most get the worst grades and vice versa. It's almost impossible to find a straight-A student who is ever spanked, for grades or for any other reason. It's almost impossible to find an F student who has never been hit or spanked, for grades and school behavior, along with a million other things. Families don't believe in education because they've never seen it work. That's the difference between IPS and Hamilton County. It's not IQ or love or discipline. They think school is a waste of time because that's their reality -- the people who do good in school end up on welfare just like the ones who didn't. So we need something more than "you'll need this in college." Sure, that requires a little creativity and patience, and many IPS teachers step up to the plate. But so many do not.
ReplyDeleteI think I figured it out. A teacher from Tech with the initials PWJ is Ariel Bender from the Star forums who is also the blogmaster for IPS B.S.
ReplyDelete@ ..So we need something more than "you'll need this in college."
ReplyDeleteYeah, here's the answer to make math relevant to them; http://www.snopes.com/humor/question/mathtest.asp. I saw this little jewel years ago, and the story went that it was written by a frustrated math teacher. The teacher was promptly canned. That part of the story isn't verified by Snopes, but there for a while, several teachers every year were dumb enough to use it. I saw a copy of it from another teacher who was considering using it, hoping the humor would wake the students up. I advised him not to, and cautioned that it would make for a short career.
It's sad that it takes that sort of desperate thinking to try and motivate students.
I can see how students would find it amusing, but coming from adults, it seems pretty insensitive. I can see why a teacher would get reprimanded or fired. It could easily be taken as racist or stereotyping instead of just a joke. It's certainly possible to make education relevant to students without insulting them.
ReplyDelete"It's certainly possible to make education relevant to students without insulting them."
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with this, but I do think administrators can have a wide-range influence on that. Right or wrong, many IPS teachers simply don't know anything about IPS students except what they lack that prevents them from belonging to middle class society. This is often made worse by a huge generation gap. So we get teachers trying to get kids to learn because that's what properly educated kids learn, and properly raised children do not challenge that. Instead, they need to be focusing on the practical benefits. The problem is I think many teachers are as clueless to the practical benefits of a high school education to an inner city kid as the inner city kid is. Hence, IPS. I think a solid administrator can go a long way in creating a positive environment and empowering teachers with the knowledge they need to teach kids who don't already value school.
IPS once had one of the best vocation education departments anywhere. Cleverly NCLB placed all the emphasis on COLLEGE and with busing and tax abatements the programs were cut. Now IVY Tech is laughing all the way to the bank providing the same education that public education should provide for kids.When kids see a REASON for learning based on a JOB they are motivated to do better.
ReplyDelete"IPS once had one of the best vocation education departments anywhere."
ReplyDeleteI started with IPS teaching industrial electronics. It was designed to be a 2 year program, 3.5 credits each semester. Prerequisites were two years of algebra. This was not a "make your momma a wooden paper towel holder" shop class. It was a real technology class that would have prepared students to pick up a very decent job after graduation. Instead it was ruined by counselors assigning students to the class thinking it was a way to have them do something with their hands so they wouldn't drop out. It became a dumping ground for every numbskull that failed everything else. A third of the students were honestly interested in the class and the others were there for babysitting.
The two years of algebra were there for a reason, as the math was crucial. Instead they stuck kids in there that had trouble multiplying 2x3, much less deal with log functions and quadratic functions. The "best" part was when someone would transfer in from another school part way through a semester they would drop him into the class and they would be clueless.
It was a nightmare, and had I not burned some bridges behind me to take the job, I would have walked out in the first several weeks. It took until sometime in January or February before things settled down. Unfortunately it was mostly through attrition of students going to jail or expulsions that the class size was reduced enough to make it managable.
The students that wanted to learn made it worthwhile and kept me coming back. The worst disappointment I had from the experience was knowing that so much more could have been accomplished had the classes not been overloaded with students that had no business being there in the first place. The time spent dealing with them sucked all the life out of the classes. In an effort to find out what they wanted and what I could do to improve the class, I gave an anonymous survey to the students. Three-fourths of the students responded with "Get rid of the dummies".
The students who were there voluntarily saw the reason for learning and were motivated. Several were bright and articulate, yet had no interest in going to college. The class could have led to jobs paying $30K-40K right out of high school.
The students who were not there voluntarily were dumped into there by counselors who saw the class as an easy fix to scheduling problems (hey, here's a class he can stay put in for over 3 class periods!). These guys would deliberately destroy equipment just to watch thing break and shatter. Referrals did no good and I was pretty much on my own.
It was an interesting learning experience, and the things that happened could fill up a book. The thing learned from that year was that vocational education was being gutted on all fronts through deliberate intentions and through ignorance of what the program was for.
One of the amusing things that happened that year was the number of students that would come to me for help with their algebra classes and physics classes. Some of the students weren't even mine :-)
"The students who were not there voluntarily were dumped into there by counselors who saw the class as an easy fix to scheduling problems (hey, here's a class he can stay put in for over 3 class periods!). These guys would deliberately destroy equipment just to watch thing break and shatter. Referrals did no good and I was pretty much on my own.
ReplyDeleteIt was an interesting learning experience, and the things that happened could fill up a book. The thing learned from that year was that vocational education was being gutted on all fronts through deliberate intentions and through ignorance of what the program was for."
Great comments. I see the same thing happening in the general ed setting...you have three or four students who want to learn and the rest are their to be entertained. It's not about race, tenure, or unions,..it's how society values an education. It doesn't take a Think Tank sucking up tax dollars with people who don't want to be in a classroom setting, to come up with solutions or buzzwords.
But every other industry in the world has to convince it's customers/clients of its value. Only education has the attitude that if people don't walk in the doors already valuing education, then nothing can or should be done to change their minds. Public education was not created for families who value education. Those families were doing fine without us. Public education was created for the families who didn't already value education. If we fail those students, then public education is a failed experiment, and we should stop funding it immediately.
ReplyDeletebaloney, I went to public schools, as did the other 1200 kids in my graduating class, 80% of us went on to college, and the majority finished. You've bought into all sorts of lies, misconceptions, and manipulation of facts. Often when we hear "facts" comparing US education to other countries and comparing education today to other time periods, we are comparing apples to oranges.
ReplyDeleteThis is not to say public education is perfect, but what is...after all the Ivy League schools produced George Bush.
You obviously grew up in privilege. (The school statistics you site are unheard of in all but the most wealthy districts.) You and your peers would have been educated and gone to college even if there was no public education system. You need to brush up on your education history. Most children were being sufficiently educated before government schools opened up. Government schools opened up to teach poor children, immigrant children, and the children of drunkards and criminals. They haven't done a very good job so far, but thankfully the system is being reworked. Obviously the current system is virtually useless from a tax investment standpoint: We get nothing more than we did when we spent less money on public education and only slightly more than we did when we spent no money on public education. I know you're a fan of the "urban families are horrible" club, but urban families can be horrible for free, right? The idea that schools should collect education funding and not educate students is idiotic.
ReplyDeleteYou're also wrong about global education comparisons comparing apples to oranges. That claim has been disputed countless times by every source imaginable, yet it continues to be repeated by the uninformed and/or dishonest.
ReplyDeleteI know you're a fan of the "urban families are horrible" club, but urban families can be horrible for free, right?
ReplyDeleteYou know nothing. I graduated from a public high school in 1974, I lived in a middle to lower middle class suburb built by veterans returning from WWII and Korea, people who wanted better for their kids.
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/
An FYI my ninth great grandfather was the founder of Yale University. Everyone grandparents generation went on to higher education, grandmother Kent State Normal College class of 1918, grandfather engineering John Hopkins 1917, grandfather Union College Class of 1912, Grandmother secretarial school, all attended public schools prior to entering post secondary schools...all of the members of my parents generation also obtained college degrees, at public universities, after graduating from public schools. Any success my family has had is the result of the access to public education.
No IPS is not doing a good job of educating kid, but to throw baby, the bathwater, and the tub our is not the answer. It is time to clean out IPS and get rid of the people and policies not aimed at student success.
The fact that you had multiple generations of education parents only proves my point. Your family was very capable of making sure you were educated, with or without public schools. You were educated in public schools because they were available. But you would have been educated just as well without public schools because your parents valued education. They would have taught you or hired someone to teach you like people did before government schools. Your experiences taint you against the majority of the population who weren't raised with any particular admiration of formal schooling. Most people in this country don't graduate from college, and a generation ago, it was even more rare to go to college. Most people come from generations of people who value practical knowledge but not so much "book-learning." That's why so much emphasis has been put on differentiating instruction, relevancy, etc., rather than the traditional way of spouting off knowledge and shrugging your shoulders at anyone who didn't run to lap it up. How can you teach at IPS and not be aware of any of this? Part of our job is teaching the value of education. If we only teach those who already value it, we're failing a great number of students, particularly in a district like IPS where they're parents often can't teach them to value it (because they don't understand and haven't experienced it's value themselves.)
ReplyDeletehere's a stool. Get off your high horse!
ReplyDeleteAre you serious? How on earth can anything I said be interpreted as arrogant or haughty in any way. If anything, it's the other way around. I respect and identify with the community I serve, where you feel you are above them and that if students only had families as perfect as yours, teaching them would be so much easier for you.
ReplyDeleteNew to the conversation, but I actually think your 'holier than thou' attitude is a large part of why IPS fails. "It's not their fault." "They never had better", blah, blah, blah! Your revisionist history and blame the present generation smacks volumes. I'm sure the kids(and present society) just eat it up. Always good to have someone to blame it on, other than themselves. Thanks for giving them what they want, instead of what they need.
ReplyDeleteBut science supports the theory that failing schools are too hostile to kids, not to nice. Science supports the theory that looking down on families destroys education opportunities. Not just one study or two. But libraries of research over the last 50 years. Kids who overcome poverty have warm relationships with teachers, teachers who respect and collaborate with the family and community, and teachers who differentiate instruction for student prior knowledge, interests, and ability. There is not a single study in the world that disputes this. There is not a single study that says the solution to failing urban schools is to do things exactly like middle-class all-white schools did in 1970 or whenever the hell you graduated from your perfect community high school where parents and children were all so perfect that it didn't matter if your teachers were idiot snobs who shouldn't legally be allowed within 20 feet of a child, let alone allowed to teach.
ReplyDeleteNever met someone so omnicient as you, who knows everything about everyone and their experiences and attitudes. Perhaps, which probably isn't in your vocabulary, your crusade is an ideology that doesn't exist. No one ever said that today's teachers are mean to kids and dislike them. I have seen teachers who don't want to teach, and they deserve to go elsewhere and good riddence, but to paint so wide a brushstroke...you are the end all and be all. Why didn't we annoint you sooner and find nirvana. For the rest of us mere mortals, maybe the answer it not that simple, maybe its more complex and has a myriad of causes and undoubtedly a myriad of fixes.
ReplyDeleteI do think I'm a better teacher and human being than you are. I also think I'm smarter. But I'm not arrogant or naive. I didn't come up with anything new. I simply learned from the people who did all the work and research, did what they said I should do, and have had the results they said I would have. So your defeatist attitude bugs the piss out of me. This is too important of a job to throw your hands up and say "I don't want to do things the right way. I want to do things the wrong way and then bitch and complain and start a blog and post on Facebook and write letters to the editor about how tough I have it and how powerless I am. What kind of teacher would I be if I didn't protest those kinds of comments? What kind of human would I be? If you're who I think you are, you'll retire next year, and we'll be done with you and your put-upon attitude. In the meantime, if you don't want my opinion about your destructive attitudes and practices, then don't post your thoughts publicly.
ReplyDelete"That's why so much emphasis has been put on differentiating instruction,"
ReplyDeleteMaybe when the bigwigs at the state start to differentiate the ISTEP our of fairness to my child then we'll start to look at differentiating things...but they don't. They want failure so they can sell us off like that Toll Road. Thanks for voting for us..here's your reward$$$.
I don't think you understand what differentiating instruction means. It doesn't change the education objectives (which is what ISTEP measures). It just gears the assignments, readings, projects, etc. to the individual student instead of a one-size-fits-all approach. Differentiating instruction doesn't hurt ISTEP scores, it raises them. Students are more engaged in differentiated lessons and are more likely to learn the material.
ReplyDeleteFrom an outsider's perspective, I wonder if this isn't a matter of good teacher/bad teacher. From reading this, it sounds like maybe IPS doesn't have a very good continuing education program for it's teachers? Could the problem be that IPS teachers aren't being made aware of some of these things you are talking about? (differentiated instruction, respecting the community, etc.) It sounds like IPS could do more to help the older teachers get up-to-date and not have this animosity toward each other.
ReplyDeleteI say 3 strikes and you're out. One, I am not who you think I am (ready for retirement), although your attitude of you being the only one capable of having the correct answers and proper motivation speaks louder than anything I can ever say. I also believe your condescending demeanor, "I'm a better teacher" and I'm smarter than you", is exactly the sort of mentality I was trying to point out--thanks for making it easier. I have mentioned nothing about throwing up my hands and data proves this and that and as later outsider alluded to that I am unaware of updated pedagogies and continual education. Its your atrocious attitude about your colleagues that I find disgusting! Oh, sorry, you don't have colleagues and professional counterparts; only underlings who are worthy of your standing and robust panacea. I'm done with you--you already have your brain filled with your dogma and other could add nothing which would interest you.
ReplyDeleteJust to be clear, I don't think I'm better than most of my colleagues. I just think I'm better than you because of your posts here. I think your comments defy common sense, and obviously I'm not the only only one because "outsider" suggested you might need more professional development. You can be done with me all you want, but if I see nonsense publicly posted in the name of IPS teachers, obviously I'm going to post a rebuttal. Otherwise people would get the idea that most of us think like you, and that's not the case. It's actually very rare. So rare, that I thought I recognized you among the hundreds of IPS teachers based on your attitudes. Different teachers obviously have countless different views about countless different things, but I only know one IPS teacher who professes your particular brand of education philosophy, and she's an English "teacher" at Tech who is near retirement. If you're not her, and you're not near retirement, then it's a shame you'll have even more years to do your damage. Hopefully, at some point, you'll take your own advice, embrace the value of education, and educate yourself on educating kids, instead of blaming your teaching problems on poor kids, urban families, over-involved families, under-involved families, administrators, charter schools, private schools, corporate Republicans, bleeding heart liberals, ISTEP testing, pacing guides, benchmark tests, dress code enforcement, or whatever else you tell yourself is the reason you aren't more effective as a teacher.
ReplyDeleteI'm the outsider from above. I didn't intend to insult anyone and I apologize if it was taken that way. I'm not a teacher, just a parent. But the argument between the two teachers started because one teacher posted that schools can't be reformed unless families change their attitudes first. The other teacher seemed to take offense at this and has listed the ways that teachers can change attitudes in school. The first teacher took offense at the second teacher's offense and so on. I thought maybe the first teacher simply didn't know some of the things the second teacher was talking about. Apparently this is not the case. I don't think I understand the viewpoint of the first teacher enough to know for sure whether I agree with him/her or not, but regardless, I didn't intend to insult anyone. I've been fortunate that my kids have had great teachers in IPS, and they seem to follow many of the same things mentioned above about differentiation and making learning connections to real life. When I went to school (also in IPS) it wasn't like that at all. I'm sure I would have done better if it was.
ReplyDelete"It doesn't change the education objectives (which is what ISTEP measures). It just gears the assignments, readings, projects, etc. to the individual student instead of a one-size-fits-all approach. Differentiating instruction doesn't hurt ISTEP scores, it raises them. Students are more engaged in differentiated lessons and are more likely to learn the material."
ReplyDeleteThis sounds like a DOE response or some Think Tank. The ISTEP is VERY subjective on many open-ended responses.It does not differentiate anything. The special needs kid sees the same tricky question the other child sees. You are not allowed to change that.Students are "more engaged," sounds like more edu-speak which we get a lot from people in the DOE who don't want to be in a a classroom setting.The mere fact that the DOE won't allow schools to petition certain test items anymore is PROOF they are getting ready to label you "under-performing." More edu-speak. Do I need to differentiate that for ya!