Thursday, May 5, 2011
Graduation Day
Have you heard about the big fight between the Central Office and the State Department of Education over graduation days? IPS has to change some graduation days and it's blaming the state for not granting waivers because of the snow days we had to use this past winter. A lot parents are really upset. This is going to ugly very fast when this goes public.
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It's already gone public, didn't you hear the local TV news a couple of days ago?
ReplyDeleteThat happened in Fort Wayne before. It was decided so late that parents/family had air line tickets/party halls/caterers etc., lined up and could not change plans. Many parties went on before graduation and those who had airline tickets had to fly out before the actual graduation and miss it. This year the same thing--moved graduation back a week.
ReplyDeleteSchools need to just push graduation back a week so that parents never have to go through the inconvenience and loss of money in the future
Exactly. Why cut it so close? Either allow more snow days in the calendar, or move graduation back. Parents are silly if they blame the state. This is due to poor management by IPS, as usual.
ReplyDeleteI thought it especially humorous that one of the local stations showed that Dr. White didn't even send in the request for a waiver until April 13th!!!! Yet he was trying to make it sound like it was the State slow in making the decision...even sillier when you consider that Dr. Bennett has said from day one that there would nbe no waivers.
ReplyDeleteIPS changes graduation ceremony dates for five schools
ReplyDeleteBy Eva Pilgrim
Fox59
10:15 PM EDT, May 3, 2011
Indianapolis
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IPS has changed graduation ceremony dates for five of the district’s schools. The announcement mailed home to parents was dated April 25. Graduation for Broad Ripple High School was supposed to be May 23 but it is now May 27, the Friday of race weekend.
Ann Weifenbach said she is frustrated with the change. Her mother is traveling from Alabama to see her son graduate. The plane ticket has already been purchased and the days off granted.
"He should have notified us in January or February of this year that the date had changed. That would have given us time to make other arrangements," she said.
Dr. Eugene White said the district was forced to move the ceremonies because of the rough winter. Four days were also added to the school calendar this year as a result.
"Life is tough sometimes. Okay? There are tough decisions that you have to make," he said.
Dr. White said he waited to change the date in hopes the state would make an exception for IPS.
"We didn't move them earlier because we really held out as long as we could with the hope that the state superintendent would in fact give us the waiver we were seeking," White said.
Dr. White submitted a written request for a waiver April 13. It’s something Weifenbach said is "totally unacceptable. What has he been doing?"
In March 2009, Dr. Tony Bennett informed schools the waiver policy had changed and released the following statement:
"In the past, the Department of Education has occasionally allowed school corporations not to make up all the days that were canceled due to weather. Going forward, we believe this practice does not meet the needs of Indiana students. School corporations have it in their power to create academic schedules that build in the necessary flexibility that will allow them to ensure their students receive at least the minimum number of instructional days. The Department of Education stands ready to assist schools in planning their calendars and seeking creative solutions to guarantee students receive the 180 days of classroom instruction."
Dr. White argued that if the state allows students to graduate currently after seven semesters then the 180 days shouldn’t be a hard rule. He said despite the 2009 change, he was hopeful they’d find exception for IPS.
"There is no one equal to IPS in the state," White said.
Dr. Bennett responded to Dr. White’s request in a letter saying, "barely meeting the minimum requirement and then asking for a waiver shows little regard for the education your students rightfully deserve."
The State Department of Education did not grant the request and parents like Ann said they’re left scrambling.
"For us, we're working it out," she said.
Other school districts are dealing with the same issue. Warren Township changed its graduation ceremony date right after the ice storm. Noblesville and Zionsville decided to keep their ceremony dates the same. They are making their seniors return to school for the makeup days after graduation. Those students' diplomas will be mailed. Several other districts also offered Saturday classes to get seniors finished by graduation.
Copyright © 2011, WXIN-TV
White was informed prior to school beginning that there would be no waivers. White misled parents, students and employees by claiming that there would a chance of waivers. It has been very expensive for many families to make these changes. White doesn't care. If I made $250,000 a year plus several thousand dollars for a clothing allowance, a car, travel allowance and expensive account, I probably could care about them either.
ReplyDeleteI wish Tony Bennett would follow his heart back to San Francisco!
ReplyDeleteThey wouldn't want him back in Southern Indiana where he was superintendent of a failing school district.
He's one of the biggest political grandstanders in the state of Indiana.
So White ignores a policy changed 2 years ago, and you're blaming the person who changed the policy?!!
ReplyDeleteGene knew the policy; Gene sat around until April 13 with his thumb up his behind...as Gene mistakenly boasted, "There is no one equal to IPS in the state", he should have realized no one else presently wants to be considered equal to IPS. Don't blame the DOE; blame Gene White for procrastinating.
ReplyDelete@He's (Tony Bennett) one of the biggest political grandstanders in the state of Indiana.
ReplyDelete_______________________
I beg to differ. Pat Bauer holds that title. No one can hold a candle to Pat Bauer's ability to grandstand.
I believe that when the state madates emergency levels as this past winter then it should automatically waive those school districts involved from making up that particular day/time/week whatever.
ReplyDeleteThat decision should come from the Govenor, not the supt.,
You would think that school systems would learn their lessons but they don't. Fort Wayne had this happen in the past and is having to do it this year. It would have been easier to set a graduation date two weeks after school lets out knowing that we have had horrendous winters. Then with schools adding days it would have been only 4 days after school dismissal and wouldn't have been so hard on those who lost money in the process....but no, that didn't happen and here we all go AGAIN
I completely disagree. It's up to the district to allow enough flexibility for snow days, either by building in snow days, or by having more than the state minimum of scheduled school days. Maybe kids don't learn anything important in four days in your class, but they certainly do in mine. But even if we want to cheat the kids out of a full school year, at least do it "by the book" and schedule Saturday schools that nobody will come to.
ReplyDeleteI've heard there several email messages between Gene White and the IPS School Board that could serve as evidence that Dr. White lied to the general public about who is at fault for the changes in graduation dates.
ReplyDeleteThere really is "no fault". The state mandates xxx amount of school days. The winter sucked. School was missed, school was extended, graduation had to be moved. Pretty clear cut.
ReplyDeleteThe fault lies that school corporation as I said before need to set graduation dates two weeks AFTER the initial last day of school. When we miss a week of school and have to make it up then graduation is only a week after the kids get out and it was SET at the beginning of the school calendar year
I think Indiana would be wise to move to the Michigan schedule. In Michigan, the schools operate via number of hours, not number of days, which provide greater flexibility for districts.
ReplyDeleteEugene White lied to everyone. Teachers, students, staff, parents and the community was treated like crap by White's lies. He even lied to the school board but some of the members were smart enough to not fall for his snake oil salesman tactis like Mary Bush and M. Zaphirou do. They are Puppet #1 and Puppet #2.
ReplyDeleteI am truly sorry for the teachers who were moved to another horrible school with a lesser position. I just hope you can make it the remaining years, Gold Bless you for all of your hard work.
ReplyDelete@I am truly sorry for the teachers who were moved to another horrible school with a lesser position.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean? A teacher moved to another school with a lesser position? What's less than a teacher in the certified level, unless you're speaking about a classified position? Makes no sense...need more details.
"I've heard there several email messages between Gene White and the IPS School Board that could serve as evidence that Dr. White lied to the general public about who is at fault for the changes in graduation dates."
ReplyDeleteSome ambitious reporter or person could go down town and ask for these e-mails under freedom of information act.
E-mails aren't covered under freedom of information.
ReplyDeleteAre you sure about that, I work in another system and we were told to be very careful what we put in emails because they could requested under freedom of information act, here is what we were told
ReplyDeleteFOIA is a records access and disclosure law. Records subject to FOIA (that is, FOIA records) are the records in the possession of an agency regardless of storage medium. FOIA records may exist anywhere within the agency or be in the agency's legal custody, such as at a Federal record center. FOIA records must be made available upon request, unless one of the nine FOIA exemptions applies.
FOIA basically covers all Government records, regardless of whether they are Federal Records Act(RFA) or non-FRA records. Thus an E-mail message that is not an FRA record could still fall within the scope of an FOIA request.
You were told wrong. E-mails are like any other form of communication in any office. E-mails can be read by your employer and are not considered "private" like your text messages, but they are not official records, and reporters and citizens can't have access to them without a subpoena.
ReplyDeleteTell that to those employees at the Ind utility commission whose e-mails have been pubished in the Star. Or that Ass't Ind Atty General whose anti-mabor e-mails were in the media. Teachers and schools are PUBLIC employees and e-mails in the school systems, system are public record, subject to FOIA. UNLESS e-mails discuss specific student information.
ReplyDeleteYou're confusing two concepts, privacy laws and freedom of information. E-mails are not protected as private. If someone gets a hold of them, there is nothing that says they can't publish it or share it or use it against you. But they are not subject to FOIA. A reporter or parent can't go to the school and request e-mails. Well, they can request it, but their request certainly won't be granted. Go ahead, try it. Let us know if you have any luck.
ReplyDeleteAsk Zaphirou about the poison emails from Eugene White about the chaotic graduation schedule and the last minute changes needed because Eugene White lied to everyone.
ReplyDeleteLet's hear it for the new Tech Basketball Coach.
ReplyDeleteI think the point is that if someone is persistent, he or she can eventually gain access to e-mails because school officials, teachers, etc., are public employees working in public-owned facilities, using public-owned computers and public-paid-for internet hook-ups.
ReplyDeleteI don't know the legal process that is involved in getting access to those kinds of e-mails, but it can be done. For this reason, teachers in most Indiana districts are frequently warned about what not to discuss in their e-mail communications.
New board report-Kay Kelly gets a BIG raise. Congratulations. not
ReplyDeleteWould that be the same Kay Kelly who Eugene tried to fire four years ago, missed the dead line and made into a weed checker? Another administrator who is so grateful to have a job she's eat dirt if Big Gene asked her to.
ReplyDeleteHe has surrounded himself with so many "yes" people that he is unaware of what is really going on. When someone loses touch with reality don't we think they are insane? Has he lost touch with reality...?
Yes, but can he sink free-throws for donations?
ReplyDeleteKay Kelly is still with IPS?? Geez almighty! She's older than I am, and I'm older than dirt. I suppose that shouldn't be a surprise since Jackie Greenwood is 10 years older than I, and the IPS Board of Education graciously continues to pay her $120K+ annual salary for Lord knows what, other than perhaps being thick as six in a bed with the Concerned Clergy and for smoothing the political path for Eugene White with the hood members. Greenwood is considered by some as a female leader of the IPS Afrocentric mafia.
ReplyDelete@Would that be the same Kay Kelly who Eugene tried to fire four years ago...
ReplyDelete__________________________________________
Yes, that is the same Kay Kelly. She's the woman who spent a year or two on the IPS payroll traveling around to IPS schools and checking on those really, really important things like 'goose poop' on the athletic fields at Broad Ripple. Seriously, she issued a 'now-famous' negative report to the Central Office big-wigs outlining and describing the unhealthy, dangerous e-coli bacteria deposited by migratory birds on the BRHS athletic playing fields. Yes, Indianapolis taxpayers paid her 6-figure salary to inform the populace that geese, indeed, do poop on IPS properties. I feel certain that Kay explained and reported this rather untenable 'goose poop' situation in her stiff upper lip manner of speaking that is strikingly reminiscent of the British Royal family's manner of speech.
Kay, old girl, you've done a bloody good job!
Eugene White lied to the graduating class of 2011, their parents and families and to the school board members. He did it verbally and in writing. Sooner rather than later, it will become public. Eugene White should be suspended for 30 days for telling lies.
ReplyDeleteThere aren't enough 30 day periods within a year to cover the length of all the 30 day suspensions he would need.
ReplyDeleteAll the more reason to just fire him.
ReplyDeleteGeez, sound the klaxons!
ReplyDeleteAHH-OOGAH! AHH-OOGAH!
The RMS IPStantic has hit the iceberg of failing scores, apathetic students, beaten down teachers, incompetent legislators, and incompetent administrators! The guts of the ship have been ripped out, and she's taking on water.
Wait! There's a new administrative directive from the director of Turnaround Schools: All teachers are to hereby rearrange the deckchairs immediately. It won't accomplish anything but it'll look a lot better and it will pave my career path and pad my resume.
Damn, head for the lifeboats, this sucker is sliding under and the band still plays on.
Paddle faster. I hear banjos.
ReplyDeleteGuard every orifice.
You all are totally the before picture on education reform. I hope some teenager uncovers this blog in 20 years, and laughs at the kind of people who use to be in charge of educating kids.
ReplyDeleteI ensure that my students know the difference between "use to" and "used to".
ReplyDeleteI'm willing to bet you write "alot", also.
Totally FAIL!
tell us more about the new Tech basketball coach
ReplyDeleteYou're an idiot. A complete fucking idiot. Nobody thinks anyone comes on here and says "tell us more of your moronic gossip." Nobody. Everyone knows you are just some pathetic goob on the computer pretending to be both sides of a conversation. Nobody wants to spread nasty gossip but you. You're the only one. There's not a group of you, and you're not fooling anyone. Everybody knows you're a sociopath, and a pretty stupid one.
ReplyDeleteNo more "Here's your sign."
ReplyDeleteIt's now "Here's your voucher."
So I need two signs?
ReplyDeleteHow many are YOU wearing? At what level of maturity and sophistication must one be to use profanity?
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? She must be SO PROUD!!!!!
Lucky kids at school 65, they will have a new music teacher, Linda Poulter. A fabulous teacher!
ReplyDelete"You all are totally the before picture on education reform. I hope some teenager uncovers this blog in 20 years, and laughs at the kind of people who use to be in charge of educating kids."
ReplyDeleteSweetie, we're hoping those kids will still be able to read and write, and keep the crayons between the lines, much less know how to do a decent search on the internet.
"You're an idiot. A complete fucking idiot."
Talking to yourself again? Try higher doses of Thorazine. It'll make you feel so much better, and you'll stop caring that the largest school district in the state is getting the same treatment as Ned Beatty in "Deliverance".
This is courtesy of one of the subscribers at the bottom of the page. Interesting article that calls some of the bullshit out there and posts notice that not everyone is being snookered by the calls for reform.
ReplyDeleteI'm posting this in its entirety because at least half the posters on this blog seem to be incapable of coherent thought and action.
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'Manifesto' should be resignation letter
Kevin G. Welner, professor of education policy and program evaluation in the School of Education at the University of Colorado at Boulder, and director of the National Education Policy Center.
By Kevin G. Welner
For a concise compilation of today’s fads and gimmicks in education, go read “How to fix our schools: A manifesto by Joel Klein, Michelle Rhee and other education leaders,” published in the Outlook section of Sunday’s Washington Post.
The sort of nonsense about education found in the new manifesto has become astoundingly commonplace, but this time it came not from a Hollywood filmmaker or a Washington think-tank advocate but from the leaders of 16 of the nation’s major city school districts.
According to the manifesto, “It’s time for all of the adults -- superintendents, educators, elected officials, labor unions and parents alike -- to start acting like we are responsible for the future of our children.” Absolutely. Members of each of these groups can do more – a lot more.
In fact, we should start by removing the irresponsible signers of this manifesto from any position of power over “the future of our children.”
Are the adults who signed this manifesto acting responsibly when they bash teachers, and only teachers? What about the “superintendents” and “elected officials” who are conveniently never mentioned again in the Manifesto but who actually have some control over the resources available to students and their teachers?
Are these adults acting responsibly when they advocate for even more test-based accountability and school choice? Over the past two decades, haven’t these two policies dominated the reform landscape – and what do we have to show for it? Wouldn’t true reform move away from what has not been working, rather than further intensifying those ineffective policies? Are they acting responsibly when they promote unproven gimmicks as solutions?
Are they acting responsibly when they do not acknowledge their own role in failing to secure the opportunities and resources needed by students in their own districts, opting instead to place the blame on those struggling in classrooms to help students learn?
(continued to next entry in this blog)
As a researcher and a parent, I yearn for an end to the over-the-top propaganda, the slick think tank reports, the educational “leaders” more interested in blaming than in solving, the wasteful sinking of taxpayer money (and educators’ time) into reforms that have been shown not to work, and the stirring films that suggest that the heartbreaking denial of educational opportunities to innocent children can be miraculously solved by the latest fad.
ReplyDeleteMove money from neighborhood schools to charter schools!
Make children take more tests!
Move money from classrooms to online learning!
Blame teachers and their unions – make them easier to fire!
Tie teacher jobs and salaries to student test scores!
None – literally NONE – of these gimmicks is evidence-based.
Charters? Overall, they’re no better than other schools.
Tests? Twenty years of testing has bought us minimal improvement in scores but made learning less engaging.
Online learning? Sometimes it’s a good supplement for classrooms, but the research doesn’t support it as a widespread substitute – unless you’re an investor in one of the companies that stand to make a fortune courtesy of taxpayers.
Easier routes to firing teachers? Why do states, districts and schools (including charter schools) with few if any union protections have the same patterns of student learning?
Test-based merit pay, etc? Rarely has a policy been so vigorously pursued that so clearly lacks research support.
The manifesto and these facile “solutions” are built on little more than rhetoric, and it all begins with a patently incorrect factual assertion:
“So, where do we start? With the basics. As President Obama has emphasized, the single most important factor determining whether students succeed in school is not the color of their skin or their ZIP code or even their parents’ income -- it is the quality of their teacher.”
If the president did in fact say this, he is wrong. While no researcher could offer precise numbers, regression models tend to attribute a far greater role to out-of-school factors such as parental educational level and family income.
While teacher quality is, in my opinion, the most important in-school factor, there are many others: school leadership, class size, facilities (e.g, working bathrooms, heating, air conditioning, lighting, etc), learning resources (books, computers), and curriculum.
Teacher quality is critical, but the variance we can attribute to this one factor is probably less than 10 percent. This isn’t new – we have known about the high predictive ability of out-of-school factors since thefamous Coleman study almost 45 years ago.
None of this means that in-school factors should be ignored. They should absolutely be addressed, including teacher quality. But they should be addressed based on evidence of best practices, and calls to address these needs should not be made as part of an attempt to downplay out-of-school needs.
(continued to next entry)
(continuation from previous entry)
ReplyDeleteIt is disgraceful for these leaders who are in charge of 2.5 million students – disproportionately students in impoverished, urban areas – to act as enablers for those who dismiss the need to address issues of concentrated poverty.
Unemployment is high. More and more families are falling into poverty, and their children are showing up to school hungry, in need of health and dental care, and even homeless. Yet these “leaders” dare to suggest that everything will be just fine if we had fewer tenured teachers and more charter schools and online learning.
Think about that – the people to whom we have handed over responsibility for educating our children are engaged in scapegoating, offering bread-and-circus diversions while the children under their care see their life chances slipping away.
These are the people in power – the people who have overseen the system that they now seem to acknowledge has only gotten worse under their regimes and their policies.
They scapegoat and divert because they refuse to acknowledge their failures and to step aside.
How very, very sad.
LINK:
Posted by Robert Helfenbein
Helfenbein is entitled to his opinion, and you're entitled to yours. But I really think we undermine ourselves when we want more respect but get defensive at anything that suggests that teachers have power in education. If we want credit for the success stories, we are the obvious place to start in creating more success stories and fewer unsuccessful stories. If we insist the unsuccessful stories aren't our fault, that they are due to the parents and the curriculum and the superintendent, then we can't be surprised when the public doesn't value us. I'm a teacher, and the shrill objections to accountability and reform sound petulant and self serving to ME. I can only imagine how they sound to parents and voters. Also, even completely apart from the politics and blame game, I think education will obviously improve a great deal when we focus more on what students and families want out of education rather than what education wants out of families. It goes back to intrinsic motivation and the way people naturally learn.
ReplyDelete"I think education will obviously improve a great deal when we focus more on what students and families want out of education rather than what education wants out of families. It goes back to intrinsic motivation and the way people naturally learn."
ReplyDeleteI'd like to know what they want myself? A place for social gatherings? A convenient after-school babysitter? People are not fools. When I ask parents about education reform in Indiana they all agree that it is the home or lack thereof and the students that they have issues with. They don't have a grudge against teachers and they know that the union exists only in name. No one gets into this profession for the money...especially at IPS. The are in it because they think they can make a difference. Helfenbein was correct. Still waiting for REAL reform.....
You don't know it, but your attitude conveys the #1 problem in IPS. The teacher's attitudes toward families. That's not normal. It's unique to large urban schools with majority veteran teachers. Families need to be able to escape that. I'm glad we can.
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of in-between. I'm an education student who is also an IPS parent. There is definitely a problem with the way IPS treats parents and students, and classes at my boundary school aren't at all like what you'd find in a charter, private, township, or suburban school. In IPS, it seems like almost everyone (adults and children) are just going through the motions. I've seen it as a parent, and I've seen it in observations as a college student. I think teachers have a lot of control over that. If I, as a motivated adult with lots of self control and a specific agenda, am bored and unengaged in a classroom, obviously the kids are not engaged either. I don't think some IPS teachers are even aware of how other classrooms are doing things. My kids go to a magnet school, and the difference in the way the teachers speak to children, the difference in the way a typical lesson is taught, the difference in the level of work being done, is night and day from my boundary IPS school. Sure, a good curriculum is helpful. But with a little bit of time and effort, a good teacher can supplement boring curriculum with real world connections and interesting activities.
ReplyDeleteI also agree there is a lot of indifference among parents and students, but I don't think we are powerless to improve that. I think if we were less defensive about reform and harnessed some of that new energy to create a new dynamic in IPS, we'd all be a lot better off. IPS can be way better. Teachers need to believe that first. Then students will believe it. Then their parents. Then the rest of the community. In that order. Otherwise, other teachers in other schools will convince teachers of what education can really be. And THOSE teachers will convince students, then their parents, then the rest of the community. In that order. But teachers are the pivotal piece of the puzzle, whether you see that as empowerment or bashing.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the reforms not being evidence-based. How can we obtain evidence on how these reforms will work without trying them? One of the best things about school choice is schools can make daring and innovative changes without forcing anything down the throats of skeptical teachers and students. The potential for success is much higher when everyone's on the same page, and that's hard to get in a once-size-fits-all traditional one-choice, assigned-school public education system.
ReplyDeleteThen let's start requiring students to attend school with blindfolds. That would be daring and innovative. Sure it is not evidence based but if we do it for a few years, we can see what the evidence says.
ReplyDeleteIf everybody but a handful of teachers was screaming for the opportunity to wear blindfolds, then your suggestion might have some validity. You're intentionally being obtuse, and I don't know why. We have several people who come here who are open to discussing these things, and the only thing you bring to the table is hostility. What if you're wrong? What if education reform improves education, improves student performance, improves teacher job satisfaction, and eventually improves the nations' economy? All of your bitterness will have been wasted. And for what?
ReplyDelete"You don't know it, but your attitude conveys the #1 problem in IPS. The teacher's attitudes toward families. That's not normal. It's unique to large urban schools with majority veteran teachers. Families need to be able to escape that. I'm glad we can."
ReplyDeleteSkip the cheer leader nonsense, and certainly skip the crap about majority veteran teachers somehow being the root cause of the ills of education. We were in the trenches doing the best we could and mostly succeeding when you were still making mud-pies and filling your diapers. Change will take place as soon as the incompetent administrators are kicked out and the self-serving politicians are defeated in the next elections. The basic problem comes down to a bunch of fool kids who have taken over the classrooms and allowed to disrupt and spread their toxins of education doesn't matter. When a small group of kids are allowed to repeatedly return to the classroom, it affects the entire environment and lowers the achievement of all.
Somewhere, someone declared that all children are going to college and pumped hot air up their butts that everyone could do it. Give me a freakin' break here, not everyone has the ability to become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, scientist. Get over it, it's not going to happen. The Japanese knew that years ago, as witness their examinations given to 12 year old students. It's a 225 question test given in 8 hours on one day. You score a certain percentage, and you go on the academic track for high achievement and the rest are funneled into general ed programs that also include extensive voc-ed programs.
Ask what happened to the once comprehensive set of voc-ed programs that IPS once had? Those were valuable programs designed to teach students job skills that would pay off immediately after graduation by moving those students into high-skill and high paying trades jobs. So what happened? The mantra of all students will go to college was preached far and wide, and several generations of students now finish high school with little real world job skills. Small wonder they are disaffected; they know damn good and well they don't have the background to succeed and they know what they are hearing isn't really going to apply to them in spite of the happy horseshit they hear preached at them. They tune that stuff out very quickly, and then start to rebel when we as teachers tell them they can do it.
It's not about teaching content, it's about keeping control and keeping the Philistines away from the gate. Public education is about educating all to the best of theeir ability. It's doesn't have to be that all are in the same classroom when it's done. Hardassed reactionary. Damn right it is, and it's common sense. Separate the nitwits and fools from the ones who want to learn. It's not worth the loss of all to try and save a few. In manufacturing processes, poor raw materials are rejected and keep out of the work flow. We're manufacturing educated future citizens, and unless we apply common sense quality control, the entire batch is at danger of being irreparably damaged. Pull the "defective" ones out of the process and place them in a remedial situation that is designed to bring them up to speed as quickly as possible. Placing them with the students that are trying is the last thing every one needs.
So what is the problem with the "majority veteran teachers"?
ReplyDeleteNot a damn thing, thank you very much! We've survived several rounds of crazy assed lunatic superintendents, even crazier administrators who couldn't teach their way out a wet paper bag much less know how to run an organization of any sort, and certainly survived students and parents with a highly misplaced sense of entitlement. We've survived ivory tower academics who in a classic Post-Modernist style insist on renaming old methods with new names and perverting the original intents.
Let's face the truth, you see us as dinosaurs from another age and most importantly view us as standing in your career path acting as an impediment to your not-so-fresh set of ideas.
Here's a set if ideas for you;
1) The union is there to protect us from the worst excesses of the reigning incompetents who act on a whim and usually out of ill-considered stupidity. They may not succeed all the time, but they're the best we have, and if you trust to the benevolence of your next principal, your career is going to be a short one.
2) Give us some discipline with a set of teeth in it and watch how we can really teach.
3) Want to see how well we can teach? Correct the lame-assed set of pacing guides that are designed for a wealthy suburb with a bunch of students with IQs about 40 points higher. Give us back the power to teach in a creative manner at a pace that lets us reach our students, and it would be amazing at what can happen.
In the meantime, we've got self-serving twits like you yammering on about how it's the old fart teacher's fault that everything is swirling down the drain, and you want to see all of us set out to pasture. I look forward to the day when you're closing in on the last ten years of your career, and there's a bunch of asses in the background clamoring for your hide to move out the way so they can make their own reforms because you screwed up on your watch :-)
In the meanwhile, you can jolly well bite my old veteran butt and go bark at the moon.
I'm fine with tracking, as long as its student- and family- led and not teacher- and school-led. The old way of school-assigned tracking was a horrible failure. I don't think veteran teachers are mostly bad, but there is a problem with the old way of thinking. It holds back poor and minority students, even those with great ability. The problem with the whole "pull out the defective ones" is that what tends to get pulled out has more to do with racist and elitist attitudes than any objective measurement. Welders are not less intelligent than teachers, and yet, they are made to feel like they are. Like trades are something for the dummies, the people who couldn't make it in college, instead of one choice among many. So they took those programs out of school. I'm sure we'll see trade charter schools pop up, and that's wonderful. But I'm also glad that the power to control schools is being put in the hands of families. Teachers and principals aren't usually the best student advocates, and what ended up happening was a popularity contest in which teacher favorites were educated and teacher non-favorites were sentenced to shop classes and remedial reading. IPS kids are not less able than other kids. If you really believe that our expectations for IPS kids are currently too high, you have to sit down and examine your own prejudices (race, culture, money, whatever those are).
ReplyDelete"In the meanwhile, you can jolly well bite my old veteran butt and go bark at the moon."
ReplyDeleteThat poster nailed it about as well as it could be nailed. To you, sir or madam, you have my congratulations. You said in a relatively few sentences what I could not articulate nearly as well in a two-hour speech.
Okay, veteran teachers -- surely you recognize that when veteran teachers first started, it was okay to have low expectations of brown people and poor people? It was okay to treat them with hostility and put them in their place, to try to show them why becoming like their parents was less respectable then becoming like the teacher. That was the way things were done, even by the best schools and the best teachers. Most veteran teachers don't still think like this, but obviously some do because we work with them and we see them post here (ironically, the same posters post enlightening, educating things like "bite my veteran but and go bark and the moon" at people who object to the old prejudices and stereotypes. Entire libraries of research have proven how damaging this attitude is to students. I'm closer to veteran than novice, and I certainly have seen how damaging it is. I'm certainly not a teacher basher, and I value experience as much as anyone, but there's no denying that the old attitudes are most common in the oldest generation of teachers. That's not teacher bashing, that's ignorance bashing. I don't owe allegiance to ignorant teachers, no matter how much experience they have!
ReplyDeleteTo 'Okay, veterean teachers"; "there's no denying that the old attitudes are most common in the oldest generation of teachers."
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me the prejudice flows from the other direction, specifically ageism and the belief that the old folks are inherently bad or evil. No one said there were low expectations of brown people or poor people; you are the one who raised that issue, and I suggest you clean the motes from your own eyes before you accuse others of unfounded prejudice.
Your attitudes strongly suggest an ignorance of history and people to state that it was okay to marginalize groups of students, and yet I hear you suggesting the same attitudes yourself. As a veteran teacher, I resent your juvenile patronizing attitude that somehow we, the older teachers have let down and failed our students and I'll be damned if I will idly stand by any longer and listen to buffoonery of your sort. My generation stood in the ramparts of protest and placed our bodies and lives on the line in support of equal rights and opportunity much more than you have dreamed of. Where were you in 1965 when heads were getting bashed in? How dare you suggest all older teachers area bunch of lackadaisical slackers? Take a long look in the mirror before you make inferences like that. You have no idea whether I am black, brown, pink, red, male or female to come sacross with your nonsense.
I've spent enough time in this world to know what achievement or success means, and I place value on what a person does with their life and what they do for their family. To suggest vocational ed programs have lesser value is an absolute slap in the face of many, many working people. The welders I know require certification of a high order to move forward in their trade, and not a one I know thinks of themselves as less intelligent than anyone else. Check the wage scale for a union electrician who has completed their three year apprenticeship program of study and on the job training. A journeyman electrician has completed a rigorous education program and starts off making well above an educator. Do you think these people should have gone to college. What for? Just to make less money?
You display an appalling lack of awareness of the working world out there, and an appalling lack of awareness of your own educational field if you don't recognize that we've been talking about applications of Gardiner's Multiple Intelligences. But then again, you view us old farts as out of touch and prejudiced.
How about a rule that says students can't bring guns to school?
ReplyDelete???? Are you naive enough to think that makes a difference? The rule is already there.
ReplyDelete@Okay, veteran teachers.......what an idiot you are and it scares the hell out of me that you may be teaching young minds. Your bigoted views of older people and veteran teachers is filled with inaccurate stereotypes and bias. From the hate you are spewing, I suspect you must be one of the "2 year wonders" Teach for America products.
ReplyDeleteI'm not the least bit bigoted against older people. I said I was closer to a veteran than a novice myself. But I don't know where you're teaching that you don't see these attitudes more prevalent in the older teachers. Young teachers have their own problems, but the low expectations and hostility are more common in the older teachers. And if you were here when the vocational programs were in place, then you know how they were abused by and why they were removed from the schools. I don't know what I said to offend you so much, but it looks like you have your own stereotypes and biases to deal with. Good luck with that.
ReplyDeleteWe have a "zero tolerance" policy on weapons. But.
ReplyDeleteIt's not often enforced IE the 2 students who appeared mid year with "suspended pended expulsion" from their old schools. Both from IPS. Nice to know kids who bring knives to school and/or attack staff members can just move to out school.
What is that teaching the children? That they can do whatever they want, whenever they want and there are NO CONSEQUENCES! The first thing we need to do to improve schools is get principals who actually enforce discipline and don't let students run the schools.
"Young teachers have their own problems, but the low expectations and hostility are more common in the older teachers."
ReplyDeleteSorry, but I simply don't agree with that and haven't seen that in the last three buildings I've been in. Low expectations are the least of the problems. I see high expectations of the students despite their apathy and resistance to being motivated. I constantly remind them that they are responsible for their own destinies and what they put into learning is what they will get out of it. I tell them bluntly that the work world doesn't care if they're black, white, polka-dotted, or whatever. The workplace expects them to be there, and to have a reasonably solid base of education to do the jobs they are going to get paid to do. If they don't have the skills, they don't get the job.
Yes, I've been around long enough to know how the system abused the voc-ed programs by dumping illiterate troublemakers into the voc-ed classes thinking that they wouldn't drop out if they had a class that was hands-on. I have no idea what the counselors were thinking, as the voc-ed classes were not a "make your momma a wooden paper towel holder" class. One of the technology classes had a prerequisite of two years of algebra, yet the counselors would consistently enroll some knuckle dragging felon who was ready to drop out into the class. It was a dumping ground. The majority of the voc-ed programs were eliminated by the principals in the false hope that the troublemakers would follow the classes out to Tech and be out of their hair.
My biases were acquired after coming to IPS. I've learned that no good deed goes unpunished. I've seen that incompetent principals seem to rise to the top and in the process wreck many a promising career of good teachers around them. I've seen that a union is necessary to provide backing to teachers who get caught in the gears of vengeful and spiteful administrators. I've seen that 90% of our students want to learn and want to improve their lives. I've seen that 10% of our students are undisciplined thugs who have no more goal in life than to play around and ignore the prime function of school. I've seen that administrators who should take control of their buildings don't. One principal, who will go unnamed simply because it can trace me, finally ventured out of their office. A student went running hell bent down the hallway, and the Principal says, "Young man, stop that running!" The kid stops, and asks who the hell they are. "I'm the principal" was the response, and the kid comes back with, "Yeah, well fuck you!", and runs off. Had it been me, I would have visited every room in the building until I found the miscreant. The principal let it slide.
What I've seen and have a distinct bias against is the unfounded amount of finger pointing and blame shifting to the older teachers from the media and on here. Yes, there are some poor ones in the bunch, just as there are in any subgroup you wish to pick out, and I don't feel there are any more so than the other groups.
My bias is that American education has been derailed by ultra liberal thought that focuses on the feel good rhetoric that everyone is college material when that simply isn't the truth at all. We churn out students that are allowed to progress through the system and graduate with little more than the ability to read and write on a middle school level.
Had I the magic wand, I would wave it and cure the many ills that abound, but alas that is not the case. In the mean time my generation is getting an entirely unfair rap that we have low expectations of out students, and the insidious implication that we are racially prejudiced or ethnically or socio-economically biased. It is time to take a stand against this unjust pillorying.
Amen to the post directly above. Can I get a witness?
ReplyDelete"Can I get a witness?"
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely!
Right on sisters and brothers, gray power!
ReplyDeleteI would just like to point out that this all started because the veteran teacher above said that urban kids have lower IQs than other kids, and that we can't have the same expectations of them, despite years of research that proves the exact opposite. Then another teacher called that the "old way of thinking" and the veteran teacher started throwing a fit and pretending to be an offended group and all the weird nonsense. But um, it's still the old way of thinking, and old ways are more common in older people. And you can throw your fit and call a witness all you want but it doesn't change the fact that if you walk around an IPS school, there are going to be too many teachers who are holding kids back with this attitude. You're yelling about stereotypes but then continuing to defend the stereotype. Also, if the reason you think IPS kids are inferior isn't because they are poor and/or brown, then what's the reason?
ReplyDeleteI don't think everyone needs to go to college. But again, I think that's up to students and families, not teachers to decide. We should prepare students for as many avenues as possible, including college. The idea that anyone at IPS (who is not in special ed) is not mentally capable of fulfilling college preparatory coursework is asinine.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a teacher, just an IPS parent with pretty good reasoning skills. There are two possibilities. The veteran teacher posting that IPS kids aren't as smart as kids in other districts and can't be expected to go to college is either the norm for older teachers or is not the norm for older teachers. If he/she is not the norm for older teachers, then the supportive responses to him/her are likely fabricated, lending an odd element of mental instability into the mix. If he/she is the norm, then the stereotypes made above about hostility and low expectations are correct, no?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't get it either. It seems the problem isn't that it's unfair to say that older teachers are too often hostile with low expectations. I think what he/she/they have a problem with is that it ever stopped being okay to teach like this. Apparently, being respectful is liberal nonsense, and having high expectations is conservative nonsense. Or something.
ReplyDeleteIPS central office sent their request for a graduation waiver back in early April and got an answer back within a week. In other words, IPS knew about their request being turned down for a long time. Notice Mary Louise has never defended the facts.
ReplyDeleteFYI Bennett: No waivers for missed school days - 13 WTHRFeb 15, 2011 ... Hundreds of school districts across central Indiana canceled classes for the third consecutive day.
ReplyDeletewww.wthr.com/story/.../bennett-no-waivers-for-missed-school-days - Cached- Block all wthr.com results
You can Google the article IPS had its answer in February,
Anyone been watching the Jeopardy Teacher's Tournament? The old guys are running away with that.
ReplyDeleteEverybody knows that the best teachers are the older ones. That doesn't mean that some of the worst teachers aren't older too. That's what we're talking about in this thread. How many IPS veteran teachers could get on Jeopardy! :)
ReplyDeleteWhy would we want to be ON Jeopardy when we're all IN Jeopardy?
ReplyDeleteDid anyone else have a stand-up meeting with IPS begging for Intercession teachers? Yeah, sure, I want to do that.
Probably one of the most prevalent problems that come with the new inexperienced and untrained teachers [TFA} is that many[not all] feel sorry for the kids so they give them good grades even though the grades weren't earned. With high expectations comes the responsibility to inform students and parents that the expectations are not being met. The teacher has the expectation of going above and beyone the call of duty to get the student there. Just giving a grade and a candy bar to the student because you feel sorry for him/her is not the answer.
ReplyDelete"Did anyone else have a stand-up meeting with IPS begging for Intercession teachers? Yeah, sure, I want to do that."
ReplyDeleteWhile it's a noble idea it will backfire. They cut Title 1 funding to fund this. Kids won't show up and teachers won't teach then. The district is banking on those intercession times being, when students who are behind, will "catch up." Previously this was done DURING the school year.
IMO, the only reasons parents MIGHT support student attendance in Intercessions is to save on childcare expenses (or simply get the kids out of the house) and to ensure free meals.
ReplyDeleteIPS could get many more educators on board if the hourly rate was offered.
As an IPS parent, I'm curious what they're offering as far as pay for the intercessions (since I assume from your post they're not breaking down your usual pay into hourly.)
ReplyDeleteAlso, just a suggestion, but if you want more respect and cooperation from parents, the first step would be to show them that same respect and cooperation. I'm sure you wouldn't like parents posting a comment like that negatively generalized all IPS teachers. It's not fair to do it with parents either.
What do you want to bet the comment about parents is from a veteran teacher? ;)
ReplyDeleteSo when does the official word come out on if these high schools that have been failing for the past 5 years straight get taken from IPS... I started out hoping that IPS administration would take this seriously and correct their issues, but it looks like they have only used the time to milk more money out of the system for themselves... the blatant misuse of funds and giving of high paying positions to unqualified personnel seems to be a telling factor that those at the top, specifically Gene White, may finally be seeing the writing on the wall that he may not have the 500 million dollar a year ATM machine he has had at his disposal... it's most likely too much to ask that criminal investigations take place, but at the very least they should take the schools that IPS obviously doesn't care about, which seems to be every other school that is not Tech or feeds Tech...
ReplyDeleteI have agreed for a long time. Schools need to be investigated for misuse of funs. IPS isn't the only culprit. Jobs are given with suspect titles with no explanation what they are and the pay is way over the top. Administrators need to answer to the state where all the funds are going.
ReplyDeleteI am still waiting, with no answer where all that stimulus money went earlier this year to save teachers jobs. I got a feeling it was for the hiring of buddies and titles that have nothing to do with the one on one education of ours students
@Schools need to be investigated for misuse of funs.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Teaching isn't fun anymore. It's certainly from misuse.
Schools need to be investigated for misuse of funs.
ReplyDeleteThat's FUNDS. Misuse of FUNDS, money, budget.
Oh. Never mind.
Love,
Rosanne Rosannadanna
Grow up. Fingers type fast and miss a D...big Deal
ReplyDeleteWe ALL know they meant funds for heavens sake
try to add something useful to the conversation
http://www.theonion.com/articles/budget-mixup-provides-nations-schools-with-enough,20350/
ReplyDeleteThe sad part of that satire is that even if IPS funding was tripled, it still wouldn't reach IPS students. It never does.
ReplyDeleteIs it true that all laid-off teachers lose all their sick and personal days?
ReplyDeleteI pray all those without positions RUN to Indiana's Work Force One on June 1 to apply for unemployment. They're certainly entitled!
Sure, they're entitled to unemployment benefits, but I find it kind of funny that you'd pray that they collect unemployment rather than pray they find another job quickly!
ReplyDeleteSeriously, for anyone who has lost a job, I truly pray it becomes one of those "one door closes, another opens" sort of things!
I apologize to change the subject, but just have to be heard. Why in the h*** is the district not paying the chosen intersession presenters for time spent at the fabulous fair tomorrow night?
ReplyDelete7,500 students got to attend the values for life celebration. That sounds great until you do the math and realize that is only 22% of our students. 78% of the students were too badly misbehaved to go. That's really sad, but explains a lot about our district. Pay attention TONY!
ReplyDeleteBut that's misleading. My nephew didn't get to go last year because of behavior problems, but he's in a different school now, and his grades and his behavior have improved dramatically. The problem with IPS isn't that most of the kids are bad. The problem is that a few bad kids are allowed to influence the whole school. You can badmouth Tony Bennett all you want, but without some of the changes in the last few years, my nephew would still be stuck in that mess of a school.
ReplyDeleteAlmost everyone in my kids' school went, so that means many other schools had virtually nobody go. That says more about school and classroom management than it does about the kids.
ReplyDeleteIt says a lot about their families. The school where almost everyone went must have low standards.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should just be glad we have 22% great kids.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to know how many of those students came from non-magnet schools?
ReplyDeleteMaybe the middle school and high school students weren't invited.
ReplyDelete"My nephew didn't get to go last year because of behavior problems, but he's in a different school now, and his grades and his behavior have improved dramatically. The problem with IPS isn't that most of the kids are bad. The problem is that a few bad kids are allowed to influence the whole school. You can badmouth Tony Bennett all you want, but without some of the changes in the last few years, my nephew would still be stuck in that mess of a school."
ReplyDeleteMy boss' kid was always a punk. Bad grades and bad behavior. So they sent him to a charter school because he wore out his welcome in the public school. Over night he's on the honor roll and we don't hear anything about his behavior issues. My boss is thrilled but those of us in the office can't believe it. We've met this kid. Now not ALL of his teachers and schools were the reason for his grades and attitude. Then I find out my dental hygienist's roommate works in one. She has a sped degree and akl they use her for is running a holding tank for disruptive students. If they act up during the day they spend the whole day with her..no instruction just babysitting. Why don't these stories hit the media in this city??? Anytime IPS breathes it's on the news...true or not.
And now we have an ethics policy?
ReplyDeleteMost kids went. It was only grades 2nd through 6th, I think. So 7500 is something like 85% of the eligible kids.
ReplyDeleteIt goes the other way too, though. There are tons of kids who are perfectly good kids at home and church and in the neighborhood, but at school it's a whole other story. Bad grades, getting in trouble, you name it. It can be because of too many bad kids running things, or because teachers don't care, or bad discipline policy, or maybe some kids are bored, or whatever else. Why is it when we're talking about teachers, everyone has all these bad things to say about how messed up IPS is. But God forbid if someone suggests that this all impacts kids. Half of these kids on the streets were good kids until IPS got a hold of them.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about charter schools, but I've seen kids come to my daughters' magnet school and do much, much better than they did in their boundary school, both behaviorally and academically. I do think some of the schools are so bad that even really great kids get lost in them.
ReplyDeleteThe star says it was grades 1 through 6, but either way, obviously the person who posted the 22% figure was just kid bashing. Probably a veteran teacher.
ReplyDeleteFor the love of pete! ENOUGH with the veteran teacher bashing. Some the best teachers I've seen are veteran, some of the worst are younger. And vice-versa.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the person didn't realize that good behavior only counts for grades 1-6.
Saw this on a button:
ReplyDeleteThose who can, TEACH, those who can't teach pass laws about how to teach.
After years of working in the public schools I've learned one thing. Those veteran teachers who are still here 20,30 and even 40 years are those who truly love teaching and their students. They have weathered many changes in education and have spent many years upgrading their own education to better teacher students throughout the years.
ReplyDeleteMethinks thou dost protest too much.
ReplyDeleteNews story from Fox 59 regarding one of the IPS magnet schools.
ReplyDelete_____________________________________________
Broad Ripple student claims she was hit by classroom assistant
By Gene Cox
Fox59
5:33 PM EDT, May 13, 2011
Indianapolis
A student at Broad Ripple High School claims a teacher's assistant hit her three times during band class. Now, her mother wants to press charges.
Fox59 News has been told the Indianapolis Public Schools (IPS) detective who is working this case, is taking it seriously. In comparison to most of the crimes we come across, this investigation has been a slow one, taking more than three weeks.
A police report was filed in mid-April. The student is a 12-year-old who attends Broad Ripple Magnet High School in Indianapolis. The student was apparently coming back from a suspension meeting with school administrators and her mother when she informed the dean she had been assaulted in band class by a classroom assistant named Tanya Woodfall.
According to the police report, "out of nowhere Ms. Wigfall started yelling at her. She hit (the student) in the head three times."
Also in the report, it stated the principal was advised to suspend Wigfall. She was suspended for five days and has since returned to the school. Three unnamed people reportedly witnessed the incident. The mother of the student told Fox59 News she is "tired of the school covering up" what had happened.
Copyright © 2011, WXIN-TV
Something doesn't sound right about this story. I would be willing to bet this 12 year old has had many behavior problems. And the parent has always denied it was the child's fault.
ReplyDeleteYou make it sound like it's okay to hit the child in the head three times, as long as the kid's a brat.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised the classroom assistant's name was released in the story.
ReplyDeleteI think it's funny that IPS teachers swear that it's not the school or teaching causing the problems, they swear it's the families. But then they freak out at the idea of anyone else giving it a shot. If it's really the families, why are you worried? Why the need to hold public education hostage? What are you afraid of? Why would people take advantage of vouchers or choice unless they're getting something IPS wasn't providing.
ReplyDeleteThe classroom assistant is an adult. They always release the names of adults in stories. Just kids under 18 get protected.
ReplyDeleteThis was furher back up the thread here; "I would just like to point out that this all started because the veteran teacher above said that urban kids have lower IQs than other kids..."
ReplyDeleteI've got no idea what the outlying districts are like, or even further out in the state. I do recall a conversation back about 11 or 12 years ago that sure raised my antennae. I had just finished some ed-psych courses and commented to one of the counselors in our building during ISTEP testing that the memory recall "warmup" exercise sure looked like an IQ test. This was the old "A gribble is grommet" recall exercise. Yes indeed, it was a rudimentary IQ test that while not as accurate as a Stanford-Binet or Wexler test, it still got inside the ballpark. The results were that the average IQ of the IPS tested population was 88 according to the counselor. So that sends me digging to find out what that means. It means, boys and girls, that at that time our students were about 16th percentile compared to the nation as a whole. That's from the bottom, not the top. You can make up your own minds if and how things have changed since then.
Just so someone doesn't start yelling and screaming over this, IQ is not fixed for life. Environment can raise or lower it, and individual initiative to learn can raise it considerably. The same people who will bitch and moan about this won't bat an eyelash if someone mentions how one group or another has greater innate athletic ability. People can have different talents and abilities, but there's a universal level playing field for academics?
We can name reasons, rightly or wrongly, that this is the way it is, starting with poverty, descending through cultural attitudes, family values, and finally on the old war-horse teachers that look like a good scapegoat according to some. Forget all that, we know what the problem is, how do we fix it?
88 is lower than what any research into the subject has ever shown, but not by much. Average IQ is in the 90-110 range, and most inner city kids are in this range. The difference in poverty and wealthy populations is that predictably, non-stimulating environments will result in more kids on the low end of that range. More stimulating environments (at home or at school) can significantly increase these numbers. The main difference in urban and suburban schools isn't the number of average-intelligence kids. Those are actually very similar. The difference is in the distribution of the kids with "abnormal" intelligence. Urban schools have a disproportionate number of below-average IQ kids, and wealthy areas have a disproportionate number of above-average IQ kids. This negatively impacts achievement expectations in the school. But research has shown repeatedly that teacher expectation has a greater influence on student performance than IQ. I can list the studies if you want, but repeatedly, when teachers are told that a student's IQ is much higher than it is, the student's performance will improve compared to the year before. The converse is true as well. Low expectations consistently yield below-average results.
ReplyDelete@ Veteran teacher:
ReplyDeleteThank you!!! 'bout time somebody posted something on here that makes sense! (and no, I'm not a teacher, just an "interested observer." I'm the guy who grades the failing kids' pathetic ISTEP tests)
Really, whatever happened to Voc Ed? Not every kid is going to college, nor do they need to.
@ "@Okay, veteran teachers"
ReplyDelete""one of the "2 year wonders" Teach for America products.""
That'd be my guess...either that or one of the "Teaching Fellows"
I would just like to point out that this all started because the veteran teacher above said that urban kids have lower IQs than other kids, and that we can't have the same expectations of them, despite years of research that proves the exact opposite. Then another teacher called that the "old way of thinking" and the veteran teacher started throwing a fit and pretending to be an offended group and all the weird nonsense. But um, it's still the old way of thinking, and old ways are more common in older people. And you can throw your fit and call a witness all you want but it doesn't change the fact that if you walk around an IPS school, there are going to be too many teachers who are holding kids back with this attitude. You're yelling about stereotypes but then continuing to defend the stereotype. Also, if the reason you think IPS kids are inferior isn't because they are poor and/or brown, then what's the reason?
ReplyDeleteto "I would just like to point out...'
ReplyDeleteI didn't see where anyone said we can't have the same expectations of them. I just makes it tougher to teach them at the pacing guide since they need more time. Frequently they're functioning at 2 or 3 grade levels behind. But we already knew this from the get-go. As far as the veteran teacher throwing a hissy-fit, that sort of depends on your point of view. Your point of view seems to be that it's the teachers holding them back. It sounds like you're full of it up to your ears. No one is yelling, and no one seems to be defending any stereotype except yourself stereotyping too many teachers. BTW, I don't think they were pretending to be to be an offended group and all that weird nonsense. They sounded pretty pissed off to me. Oh, yeah, it sounded like they had reason.
One more thing, regarding "it's still the old way of thinking, and old ways are more common in older people." That's a load of shit, research has shown that old people are more flexible and less fixed in their ways than their younger counterparts. You don't make it to the end by being stubborn and stuck in your ways. My stereotypes can kick your stereotype's butts :-)
Rambo, is that you lurking on here again?
Which of my kids are "brown"?
ReplyDeleteThis mysterious adjective offends me at so many levels. Is this Hitler-follower simply an ignorant racist with issues against all non-
caucasians? If true, please permit me to bring Adolph up to date.
Not All Caucasians Are White: The Supreme Court Rejects Citizenship for Asian Indians
In its decision in the case of U.S. v. Bhagat Singh Thind (1923), the Supreme Court deemed Asian Indians ineligible for citizenship because U.S. law allowed only free whites to become naturalized citizens. The court conceded that Indians were “Caucasians” and that anthropologists considered them to be of the same race as white Americans, but argued that “the average man knows perfectly well that there are unmistakable and profound differences.” The Thind decision also led to successful efforts to denaturalize some who had previously become citizens. This represented a particular threat in California, where a 1913 law prohibited aliens ineligible for citizenship from owning or leasing land. Only in 1946 did Congress, which was beginning to recognize that India would soon be independent and a major world power, pass a new law that allowed Indians to become citizens and also established a small immigration quota. But major immigration to the United States from South Asia did not begin until after immigration laws were sharply revised in 1965.
So, are these folks "brown", too?
My husband who is Welch did one of those DNA tests from National Geographic, and discovered much to his delight that his family had emerged out of Africa, and moved up into what is now Pakistan.
ReplyDeleteWe laughed at the thought of my proud Welch mother-in-law rolling over in her grave when she discovered she was really a Pakistanie. In reality race is nothing but the imposition of standards to divide us...
Many poor kids do arrive lagging behind, but the lag is often the result of lack of background knowledge...why is it that we think that hammering them with skills they aren't ready for is going to catch them up? When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. How about going back to the old kindergarten model, where we learned to write our names on the line, and our numbers, and went to the zoo, and were socialized for school. I supervise teachers and often see them trying to push skills on kids who aren't ready. The problem is two fold, the student doesn't authentically learn the material, when it is introduced at the correct time the child is already jaded to the material and has established a mindset that says "I can't do this, I already failed at it once." We need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot. These are the kids we get, now lets figure out how best to meet their needs. We can't change their parents or their homes, or their circumstances, the only thing we can change is their futures.
I am an experienced IPS teacher in a community IPS school (not a magnet school). I do not think I have, or have ever had, a single student who is not capable of mastering a year of material in a year. And yet I know several teachers who are not capable of teaching a child a year of material in a year. Does that automatically make me a "teacher basher" Is it possible to want to dramatically improve urban education without being a teacher basher?
ReplyDeleteSo you are a veteran teacher who does not think that ineffective teaching, racism or hostility are factors in the lack of student achievement in IPS, right? You do not think IPS is failing most of its students, right? You're of the opinion that students in IPS are inherently behind other students, and that nothing any school ever does will change that unless they can change the home life, or unless they create vocational paths as alternatives to academic achievement, right? You think most of the kids in IPS come from families that are intellectually and morally inferior to your family, right? You believe poverty, crime, and welfare cause failing schools and not the other way around, right?
ReplyDeleteI'm not pigeon-holing you, you are. Everything you post fulfills the veteran stereotype and then you blame me for saying you fit the stereotype.
And you can call yourself flexible, but it makes as much sense as calling yourself a lamp. You insult anyone who even remotely questions anything you post. (And before you start your odd form of teacher bashing, where you insinuate that no experienced teacher would ever actually believe in education, I'm a 14-year IPS teacher)
Re: I do not think I have, or have ever had, a single student who is not capable of mastering a year of material in a year.
ReplyDeleteMay 31 ends my 30+ year of IPS teaching. I consider myself an excellent educator. I CAN not, nor WILL not agree with the above remark.
S***n, a 14-year-old MH student, spent every day in my sixth grade class this year. His BOY SRI was BR. His MOY SRI was BR. His EOY was BR. He is heading to Grade 7 with Fs in Reading and Math.
Was he a great fit in my classroom? Positively. Did he grow socially? Absolutely. Was he exposed to life skills? Certainly. Did his height and weight increase? Yes. Did he figure out some of my jokes? Oh, yeah. Were my other students capable and willing to experience empathy, kindness, and sharing? Yes.
Was he capable of gaining a year's educational growth? No.
I checked IPS's Teacher Roster, and couldn't locate Anne Sullivan. What is your name? Will we be reading about the second coming of the Miracle Worker? Your statement reflects a pompous ass.
I think my head is about to explode. I'm having trouble following who is bashing who, and this blog needs to have some way of following who is speaking. We need to start taking on some sort of name besides Anonymous. Some people need to start the posts with a name like Crusty Old Fart, Pollyanna, Tea Partier, Traditional Conservative, Liberal Hope, or whatever works. And stick to the same name!
ReplyDeleteAnd next year S***n, or someone like him, will be in my class, and I will advance him a year in my subject and so will another teacher or two, but others will not (Look through his school history. You'll see other teachers who have advanced him a year before, but most have not). And thus, whenever S***n leaves IPS, he will have received a swiss-cheese education that is not even remotely close to his potential. If that makes me a pompous ass, that makes me a pompous ass. But the difference between you and me is I have learned from people who were succeeding where I was not, rather than getting defensive and insulting them. Every year I teach, I'm a little better than I was the year before. You should be the one giving me (and other idealistic teachers with less experience than you) pointers about overcoming obstacles with S***n, not insulting me for not being satisfied with the status quo.
ReplyDeleteSo why are posts being deleted from this?
ReplyDeleteIf it's happening right after you post, I think it's a system glitch, not someone actually deleting posts. It was happening to me this morning.
ReplyDeleteOKay. I wish now I had copied and saved as it was a long rebuttal to someone upstream a few ways :-(
ReplyDelete"swiss cheese education" That's a good way to describe it. We get IPS students at our charter school and we see the same things described above. Kids who are plenty capable of being taught who have not been taught. I don't know if it's IPS policy, curriculum, teacher quality or a combination, but I can confirm the effect, regardless of the cause.
ReplyDeleteWe see the same thing from students returning to us from Charter Schools.
ReplyDeleteApples to oranges. Nobody starts off in charter schools in kindergarten and then switches to IPS in 7th grade. So even on the rare occasion that someone switches from IPS to a charter one year and then back again the next year, that child has still been educated by IPS for most of its school career. It's not like the kids would have been better off if they'd stayed at IPS for that one year.
ReplyDeleteOh I think they would. An excellent education can be had in IPS. You just have to take it. Just like you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, you can send a child to school but you can't make him think.
ReplyDeleteWe have students accepted to Harvard, Butler, IU, etc etc. Just read the Sal and Val page of the homepage. There is lots to cheer about, wonderful stuff happening here, you just want to point out the negative and talk about how great your charter school is.
I'm not buyin'
Back in the 50's and 60's, children with S***n's special needs would have been in an isolated classroom in the basement of our building. I remember being shuttled past that door on our trips to and from the rest room. I don't remember ever meeting any occupant at any time in the eight years I attended IPS 39 or the four at Tech.
ReplyDeleteThen came inclusion. Those kids met non-IEP students. An amazing thing happened! Everyone benefited from the experiences, including me!
S***n has been retained twice, watched his twin go on two grades ahead, was again on the retention list, so our conference with his mother resulted in her acknowledgement of his limitations and her continued trust in and full support of IPS. He will enter middle school with full accommodations for each item that his IEP requires, and should receive his certificate of attendance with the ability to complete an application, follow a schedule, cheerfully interact with the public, and lead a productive life.
Unless you teach gym, art, or music, S***n won't ever cross your threshhold. I can't begin to say how pleased that makes me. Where's your heart?
"Whenever S***n leaves IPS, he will have received a swiss-cheese education that is not even remotely close to his potential. If that makes me a pompous ass, that makes me a pompous ass."
ReplyDeleteSo, sign yourself "Pompous Ass".
Name a single IPS student who has been accepted to any top tier school in the last 30 years?
ReplyDeleteIt does happen. I think there's a kid from Attucks who was accepted to Harvard this year. But I think it's obnoxious to take credit for the successes and not accept blame for the failures. Either IPS succeeds with a few and fails at many. Or IPS doesn't play a significant role in education, and the Harvard kid was just parented better than other IPS kids. You can't have it both ways.
ReplyDeleteRobert Hawthorne: IPS student admitted to Harvard University ...
ReplyDeleteMar 16, 2011 ... Crispus Attucks Magnet High School valedictorian Robert Hawthorne was accepted to the Ivy League school.
From fox59news.com.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
You charter school people probably don't have the inner fortitude and strength, caring and love to handle working in ips. It takes a special person to work here. Many many people can't handle it. There's no shame in admitting you aren't as good as us.
IPS serves well the ones who want to be served well and achieve. The kids who don't want to learn, don't. It's as simple as that.
ReplyDeleteI do think IPS deserves respect when a kid gets accepted to Harvard. Obviously such kids are not being held back, as is the common accusation. I think IPS could and should do way more than it does, but I don't think it's fair to say "your victories don't count because you don't have more of them." A few IPS magnet schools are the best schools in the state (private and charter schools included).
ReplyDeleteName a single IPS student who has been accepted to any top tier school in the last 30 years?
ReplyDeleteA BRHS student was accepted and graduated from Harvard, Mr. Payne would know his name.
I'm the charter school teacher who posted above, but I'm not the one who said that IPS students don't get accepted to top-tier schools. I don't think that charter schools are always better than IPS. Most educated, middle class two-parent families will choose an IPS magnet over a charter school, at least until high school. But I think IPS lets a lot of kids fall through the cracks. Average kids with average parents have a very, very poor prognosis in IPS. Charter schools don't tend to get kids who do well at IPS. We tend to get kids who weren't doing well in IPS. My point wasn't to bash IPS or brag about charter schools. My point was that my entire career is about improving on what IPS teachers have said can't be improved upon. So obviously, there is a lot of room for improvement, because so many students improve when they leave. Again, that doesn't mean many don't do well at IPS. But of the ones that don't, many of THOSE do better at charter schools. You don't see that as some sort of indication that IPS could do better than it does with these kids?
ReplyDeleteBack to the number of IPS students who are accepted to top-tier universities...Just think about this. IPS has over 30K students and only 1 student was accepted to an Ivy League school? Only 1 student?? Either our students did not apply to the Ivy League's or our students are too lacking in academic skills to be considered for acceptance by the Ivy League's. What's the answer -- lacking the academic skills or did not know they could apply to Ivy League schools?
ReplyDelete"Name a single IPS student who has been accepted to any top tier school in the last 30 years?"
ReplyDeleteHow about the kid from Washington who made it into West Point last year? His parents were highly involved, and his siblings are also highly motivated. He was a good kid, and took advantages of the opportunities offered.
Having a student accepted to an Ivy League school is rare for any midwestern high school. Even the ones who can apply don't tend to. Check out the valedictorians for Zionsville or Hamilton County and you'll see a lot of IU and Purdue and not much Ivy League. Also, in IPS, finances are often a huge factor. The kids who can get accepted to Ivy League with a combination of grants, scholarships, and loans can get a full scholarship at a "lesser" school.
ReplyDelete"Either our students did not apply to the Ivy League's or our students are too lacking in academic skills to be considered for acceptance by the Ivy League's"
ReplyDeleteIf you attended Dr. White's school meetings a few weeks ago, you would know the answer to that. Most of the IPS graduates are not college ready, only around 10-20% don't need remediation.
Most rednecks ie "hoosiers" don't think about the ivy league schools. They aren't well represented in the car racing arena.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you have to be insulting? It has nothing to do with being a redneck. Most of the country doesn't put the emphasis on Ivy League that the New England area does.
ReplyDeleteHoosiers is what they is.
ReplyDelete