Should an education degree still be necessary to teach in the 21st Century or should re scrap the entire model and build something new from the ground up?
Will IPS settle a teacher contract before the new laws kick in? A number of districts are getting multiple year contracts settled very soon. Is the Indianapolis NEA doing this?
IPS has been hiring teachers without education degrees for years. They have three years to get licensed, but it still amounts to the same thing -- unlicensed teachers being allowed to teach kids. Why act all indignant about it when charter schools do it?
"It would be nice to hear from our union about our contract."
Try reading your emails from your building AR, or check out the IEA website. Negotiations are underway but the IPS team is trying to delay settling so they can wait for more favorable legislation (for them, that is) that will let them eviscerate the teachers and union. If you bothered to read what's going on, you would realize we're about to be screwed badly by the legislature and IPS, and all without the courtesy of a kiss afterwards or so much as a thank you.
I agree and wonder the same thing. What are we paying our union to do? I can't tell you how many times I've emailed questions and got the run around. The time I got laid off and asked for assistance because I thought the recalls and hiring outside the district while rif's were sitting there was wrong I was told the union could not/would not get involved. Is the union helpless? After watching the politicians destroy everything we once stood for I am leaning towards thinking the unions have destroyed themselves here in Indiana
@we're about to be screwed badly by the legislature
All Indiana educators have already been f***** regarding collective bargaining (WISH-TV, Thursday, April 21). IEA, ISTA and AFT are all lobbying feverishly against the last two impending educational "reforms". The legislation passed last week is step one against all labor unions, not just educators' associations.
This is one time IPS is not the main cause of this rape, although Big Gene could eliminate many the top-heavy salaried population of the Ed Center and Forest Manor. Problem? He'd place those individuals back in the classroom, yanking more positions from our younger teachers.
Gee, I don't know. Would you want someone who studies brain surgery as a hobby working on your child? I'd prefer that a *licensed* brain surgeon work her!
Now IPS' wiz kids are spending thousands of dollars to recruit those students who dropped out of school. They (Mary Louise) says they are not trying to recruit from other school systems. From where is that money coming? The state pays $8000 per student, also stated by ML, so spending $15,000 to bring back two students is money well spent.
INDIANAPOLIS -- A bill linking teacher pay with student performance has won final legislative approval and now heads to Gov. Mitch Daniels for his signature. The Senate voted 36-13 for the merit pay bill, which is part of Daniels' expansive education agenda. Under the bill, teachers would be evaluated annually. Only those in the top two of four categories would be eligible for certain pay raises. Local districts would create their own evaluations, but would have to include objective measures of student achievement, such as test scores.
I agree, where was the members, how many meetings, rallies, and letters did you send as a member of IEA? Nothing! I had to laugh at the fool teacher who was working the GOP phone lines on television, I hope you are prould of you choice. Mitch will dump your high paid self, and then see how poverty looks when you lose your home and vehicles.
Are you capable of posting without insulting people who think differently than you. You insult Republicans, Democrats who support education reform, Democrats who support charter schools, urban students, involved parents (helicopter parents), uninvolved parents (don't care), charter school teachers, young teachers, non-union teachers, any teacher who says they are effective, black administrators, lesbian administrators, administrators with speech impediments, and administrators who dress badly. Did I miss anyone? And instead of actually discussing anything, you just throw out insults and idiotic doom-and-gloom predictions. Could you possibly be more divisive?
Cheating wouldn't work unless 100% of the teachers cheated. Otherwise, it would be easy to spot because a pattern would emerge of students testing really well in Mr. Smith's class, but not testing well the next year. It would become obvious that Mr. Smith was a fraud.
Would you accept that kind of logic from a cheating student? If he or she justified cheating because he/she wouldn't be able to keep up grades, scholarships, etc. based on his/her own merit? Would you sympathize with the student?
Cheating is a slippery slope. Once you are "successful" and your scores are great, you are obliged to continue the cheating process forever. Once you stop manipulating your students' scores, you 'll look like a total failure. You also set up those teachers who get your kids, since they will be obligated to match your stellar scores, or look ineffective trying.
How would you like your doctor tell you that your health is fine, then you go into a diabetic coma. "But the doctor said I was fine!"
Cheating has been going on for years by both teachers and principals. Even some who appear in commercials made for Daniels. Sometimes tests of poor performing students get 'lost" and never are scored.
These questions are worthless. What happened to exposing the hidden workings of the system? People need to know what's going on behind the scenes. There's a lot happening now, but no mention of it here.
Dream on if you think IPS is going to settle a contract anytime soon. While they have no contract they can continue to spend money on administrators...and when every red cent is gone Gene White will take his cronies and retire to some island with out an extradition treaty.
I think the "hidden workings of the system" go hand in hand with reform issues. The same "b.s." that negatively impacts teachers ability to teach and their working environment also negatively impacts students' ability to learn and their learning environments. I'm surprised how many teachers will criticize IPS administration in one breath and then in the next breath get defensive at the idea that students' families and the general public could be fed up as well.
I cheated on all of my students work, and I am going to get a huge raise from Mitch/Bennett. I will do this for another ten years, stash the money and Mitch will be dumb to write the checks. I will have security that most teachers have no idea only takes a few minutes. I will do what it takes, sorry for the next grade teacher who loses with my "outstanding stduent".
I beened substituting for five years now, I knowed how to handle the childes and my Jeneral Studies degree is all that I needed. We be paying teacheres too much money. I be glad that Bosman, Mitched, and Bennett be taking teacheres down, they act like theyed knew everything.
See, this is the caliber of teacher we have "protecting" public education. Immature, insecure people who will get mean, cheat, and lie if they have to.
Screwed, and gave us STD that will slowly kill us. I am so proud of all the teachers who voted for Mitch and Tony, may you feel the pain of a 1/3 paycheck starting in August.
The union still has control of salaries at IPS, but vouchers will likely cause teacher salaries at nonunion schools to increase because schools will be wanting to recruit the best teachers, particularly teachers with success with high-risk students. People who have sacrificed money, respect, and working conditions to work with urban youth will finally be seen as the valuable resources they are. Take a Valium and an economics course, jeez.
Excuse me, the union has control of salaries... that is scary, the union has little control over salaries, and when IPS had an opportunity to change the salary schedule they ignored it...years ago teachers were given an un-negotiated 10% raise, that could have been a flat rate raise, which would have benefited IPS by raising the starting salaries of new teachers, and not really raising senior teachers salaries that much.
That goes that ignorant age and experience bias again. Why would you even think that giving much larger raises to new teacherw and not really raising senior teacher salaries that much would even approach being fair? Why do you value experience BS classroom tested skills so little? Could it be your selfish greed???
Look at the board report for April. Several Assistant Principals who were to be let go due to "reductions in Administrative positions" are stil employed by IPS with new titles. I don't know what a "Principal Practitioner" does, but I do know that "Administrators on Special Assignment" are a waste of tax dollars. These people were NOT notified by January 1st that they would not have a job; therfore IPS is obligated to keep them employed at their inflated salaries- for doing very little to earn that money. You would think that IPS would have learned their lesson when a few years back they also failed to dismiss administrators in a timely mannner and so we had people walking around earning 6 figure salaries checking for weeds in the sidewalk cracks and reporting dust bunnies in the corner of the cafeteria. If IPS has to keep these administrators employed, at least put them in the classroom- that is real work!!!
They knew, they chose to do wait. And giving a flat rate raise would have made sense for the district. Say a beginning teacher makes $30,000 and a ten percent raise would be $300. where as a senior teacher makes $60,000 and that ten percent is $600. A flat raise of $500 would have raised both their salaries, and helped the system attract new teachers and keep those new teachers.
If I were recruiting in the townships I would be skimming the cream from IPS third and fourth year teachers. Raising the beginning salary might have prevented that from happening.
Does anyone know how the new laws affect administrators, perhaps those deadlines are gone?
Take a look at this and see if you think it applies to what you see everyday at your school. Bet you will find it describes what has happened in IPS...what a shame.
Just a bit from the article- it is not really about race, but about socio-economic circumstance "Earlier this year, Natalie Hopkinson, an African-American writer, put it this way in an article on theRoot.com called “The McEducation of the Negro”: “In the name of reform ... education—for those ‘failing’ urban kids, anyway—is about learning the rules and following directions. Not critical thinking. Not creativity. It’s about how to correctly eliminate three out of four bubbles.”
Wow, the article contradicts itself all over the place. Yes, I think IPS uses a dumbing-down curriculum and allows/encourages a hostile environment that middle class and wealthy parents would not stand for. But that's the cause of reform, not the result of it. The other schools don't do this. People here have complained about it. They accuse the charter schools of "catering" to parents and students like it's a bad thing, but they're right. Schools like IPS holds kids and their intellect hostage. Teachers see students, parents, and the community as enemies that need to be conquered, not someone they need to collaborate with or answer to.
And we don't have to choose between test scores and thoughtful, analytical students. It's almost impossible to properly educate children without that being reflected in test scores.
I'm an IPS teacher with more than 10 years experience, so it's not like I want IPS to get taken over or collapse or anything. But this article is neither analytical nor thoughtful. IPS is underserving most of its students. That's a fact. It's proven. It's not disputable, at least not by any data-based or research-based criteria. My hope is that the reform measures push IPS to do more of what the charter schools are doing. But they're not going to be able to do that if we can't even admit that there's a problem that we have the power and responsibility to fix. As long as we throw the blame back on parents, then I support families being able to go to schools where they are respected as if they were middle class or wealthy parents.
I'm all for the reforms when they involve choice for students. But the takeover by the mayor is undemocratic. They are taking control away from an elected body and giving it to a single government official. That's dangerous, no matter what you think of the current mayor.
Mr. God, Mayor McBallard will have an outstanding performance with IPS. Just like when he took over IMPD and the Sheriff Department? Feel safe and sound in your home, car, shopping, and going to the bank. Not. McBallard will just hire old white men from the Goldsmith days, who have no idea about what is going on in the real world.
Is this going to open a new administration position for teacher evaluators since principals will probably not have the time to evaluate every teacher every year?
One position? Try twenty administration positions, then ten administrators to oversee the twenty, then Reggie White will be placed in charge of the whole project for a pay raise of twenty thousands dollars.
Ballard only has a few females on his staff, and most are like Mutz, folks who should of been retired years ago. Not one person on the Charter School Board has any idea about what they are doing, not one. Sarah Taylor-Baker is the only one and she is in charge of the Mayor's Action Center. By the way I am near sixty and a white male, I just have a problem with folks not any knowledge or experience in the area they are ruling on for the city.
I wonder if Eugene White will start importing relatives in from other states. He still has new jobs he could create for them. Most of his local relatives already have IPS jobs.
It is high time for me to throw in the towel. Since 2nd grade, I have dreamed of teaching. I never ever wanted to do anything else. However, I don't agree with so much of the reform that is taking place in IPS and statewide. I give it my all everyday. I expect my students to exceed the state standards. My students give it their all. However, the bureaucratic yahoos elected into office just don't seem to think that is enough.
I don't know what I can do outside of education with a BS in Elementary Education, but I don't think that I can take all of this teacher-bashing and the lack of support from the community and government any longer.
Well said. The bashing started with politicians who wanted to get the public backing to takeover our schools for their own personal agendas. (Definitely not choices made to help students, so money must be the reason) Teachers have worked so hard to prepare our children for the future. It is so sad that the teachers have been made out to be the "bad" guys and the general public fell right in line. Sad situations will arise for students in the future as great teachers will be leaving on their own or let go to make room for the robots that the politicians will replace caring people with
Good luck finding a job where you aren't pressured to do better and/or constantly worried about being laid off or downsized. I sympathize with anyone stressing about their job, but how in God's name do teachers get the idea that they should be protected from the same job pressures and economic forces that the rest of the country has to deal with?
Hilter did the same with blaming certain groups of people for the hyper-inflation and depression that had Germany in it's grip. Little Mitch is made from the same cloth, and the sad part is that he will fail after taking millions with him. Just like IPL, where the employees lost their entire 401K money and were left broke, headed into retrirement.
I honestly think that teachers like you encourage rather than argue against reform. In fact, I sometimes wonder if you're even anti-reform at all, or if you intentionally post as if you were a self-serving, not every intelligent, pro-union, pro-liberal veteran teacher so that the need for reform seems more obvious. If that's not the case, then I'm afraid you really should leave teaching. There's no way you can possibly teach children to think critically or make lessons relevant to the real world when you don't have the ability to think critically and don't understand the real world yourself. There are many smart, logical arguments for every conceivable position in the education reform debate. And your posts never even come close to trying to be logical. They're just silliness. You could use posts as examples for a 5th grade classroom on the kind of charged, distracting arguments you should ignore when trying to understand an issue, as opposed to the logical, fact-based theses.
I think teachers would get more respect in the community if we abandoned the union. Regardless of how or why they originated, putting teachers in the same category as police officers, electricians, etc. creates the perception that teaching is a skilled trade, something that anyone can be trained to do and do the exact same way every single time. In those cases, we unionize and pay for seniority because otherwise it would be cheaper to replace experienced workers with cheaper workers. Teaching isn't like that. Teaching is a profession, more like being a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, which require analysis of each case, and many complex decisions. In professions, experience usually increases performance (experienced professionals are usually better than new professionals). If not, there is a problem. If you have a medical practice where the new doctors are better than the experienced doctors, your experienced doctors are obviously not keeping up with new advancements in medicine. Otherwise experienced doctors would know everything new doctors know, plus everything they've learned and experienced up to then. The same goes for teaching. The only reason so many newer teachers are outperforming so many veteran teachers, is because the veteran teachers are ineffective. There's no other possible explanation. By protecting those teachers and giving them the highest pay, the union isn't protecting teachers, it's digging our grave. Without the union, ineffective teachers would either have to get better or leave, just like in other professions. The community will never see us as real professionals, as opposed to tradesmen, until WE see ourselves as real professionals as opposed to tradesmen.
Yeah, I think pay tiers should be more performance based, just like the real world. If you are awesome, you should get more money. If you're not a better teacher than you were last year, you shouldn't make more money than last year. But layoffs should still be seniority-based. That's how everyone does layoffs, even corporations.
I don't believe corporations (ones with no unions anyway) are honoring the rif by seniority anymore. They to are finding ways around keeping the better employee. Just had a friend who had been with his corp. for 11 years get rif'ed and another guy who started 2 years after him is staying on the job.
@If you have a medical practice where the new doctors are better than the experienced doctors, your experienced doctors are obviously not keeping up with new advancements in medicine. Otherwise experienced doctors would know everything new doctors know, plus everything they've learned and experienced up to then. The same goes for teaching. The only reason so many newer teachers are outperforming so many veteran teachers, is because the veteran teachers are ineffective. There's no other possible explanation. By protecting those teachers and giving them the highest pay, the union isn't protecting teachers, it's digging our grave. Without the union, ineffective teachers would either have to get better or leave, just like in other professions. The community will never see us as real professionals, as opposed to tradesmen, until WE see ourselves as real professionals as opposed to tradesmen.
Amen to your post, especially the part I copied and pasted above. My husband is a dentist; he's experienced; he's almost 60; however, he speaks frequently about fellow dentists who graduated in his same class at the IU School of Dentistry. Some of his classmates have thriving, booming practices because they've invested considerable time, large amounts of personal money, and significant effort into attending expensive trainings and into updating their offices/practice areas with state-of-the art dental instruments and equipment.
On the other hand, some of his fellow classmates are still working in the same offices they opened back in the 1970's, using the exact same instruments/equipment and procedures that were standard in the 1970's. As could be expected, these fellow dentists' practices are not thriving and not growing. Their work is adequate, but it's adequate by 1970's standards. These are not 'bad' dentists, but they're getting by, just barely, with out-dated practices and 'old school' attitudes.
I just get a kick out of those who continually try to get everyone believing that "older" teachers are ineffective, lazy, whatever. WHO says? WHO really knows? I work with a two gentlemen teachers who are in their 70's. STILL effective, spend their summers studying and traveling to update their experiences to share with their students. They can do this because their families are raised and they can devote much more time to their profession. As in every profession there are those who stagnate and those who move on. I have heard many young teachers complain about spending time because they have families, or part time jobs etc., so there are good, bad and indifferent at both ends. Who care about age? I can guarantee you our fine military doesn't have to many colonels right out of the academies. NOPE experience experience experience
Looks like BRHS is going to be taken off this summer (word from DOE) and if you work at BRHS, you might want to attend the meeting. Your salary will be cut in half, state insurance, reduced sick days, and no TRF! All of the existing teachers will have to apply to DOE for their jobs. Most of the teachers will not make the cut and IPS will make them long term substitutes. Oh, God where will Linda Davis end up at? I hope a nice school where she can work from home and the bar (close by)will give her a tab.
"I just get a kick out of those who continually try to get everyone believing that "older" teachers are ineffective, lazy, whatever. "
It's done for two reasons. First schools have always hired the cheapest. Resumes and experience mean nothing. It's who you know. Especially in Wayne Township where they are the highest paid. Secondly, taking away experienced teachers' job security further weakens an already weak union. This infatuation over new teachers is hilarious. There's a reason why the burnout factor is around 5 years. They come in all starry eyed but once a parent tells them to go to hell or a student tells them off then the reality check comes in. Then when they see their low salary that's it. Like most young professionals they spend their time in bars and eventually get married and go on maternity leave.It's all politics and it worked for Mitch and his crew. Teachers are now grouped with overpaid Detroit autoworkers. Just like some people think ALL poor people are deadbeats who are on welfare all their life. They have conveniently created those stereotypes for their corporate gains.
"I think teachers would get more respect in the community if we abandoned the union. "
What union? The one that didn't get air conditioning in our 80 year old run down building where there are 25 to a classroom? Same desks as when Lugar went to school there? One toilet in the staff men's restroom? What union? The same union that negotiates working conditions? Yeah they have plenty of clout. The hillbillies in this red state associate teachers with voting Democrat and they are just taking it out on teachers. Parents won't respect teachers ever, union or no union, no matter what...never have. That's why there is STILL a need for a GOOD union. We are expected to raise these kids and babysit. Won't change till the policymakers call it like it is and risk losing votes. So it will NEVER happen in Indiana.
"In fact, I sometimes wonder if you're even anti-reform at all, or if you intentionally post as if you were a self-serving, not every intelligent, pro-union, pro-liberal veteran teacher so that the need for reform seems more obvious. If that's not the case, then I'm afraid you really should leave teaching. There's no way you can possibly teach children to think critically or make lessons relevant to the real world when you don't have the ability to think critically and don't understand the real world yourself. " Oh please...I work with a right-wing goon who hates Obama and couldn't stand when he got elected. Even leaves internet crap in our lounge about him. He's still effective as teacher..he just doesn't teach history or current events in the school. Reform is OK but where's REFORM FOR educators not aimed AT educators? Who the hell are you to say who should leave teaching?
Before public education, we had the most educated, literate populace in the world in a completely privatized system. Even poor kids had the opportunity to become literate in classes taught by church women. Apprenticeship contracts were legally required to include education clauses. The exceptions were slave children in the south and immigrant children, as well as children of parents who didn't value education and didn't use the opportunities available to them. Public education was based on three promises -- 1, that we could educate children out of poverty, 2, that we could educate children even if their parents didn't value education, and 3, that we could force western culture on immigrants from non-Western countries, as well as slaves and Native Americans. Now 200 years later, we know that it's all b.s. Public education wasn't able to keep any of its promises. Meanwhile, it has created a corrupt industry that robs taxpayers of billions of dollars every year to create an education system that is less effective than when the government did absolutely nothing. The logical conclusion is we should just return to privatization. But that's blasphemy to the uneducated, which unfortunately is most of our population, including the people employed in our education system. So then the middle ground is reform. Let's "fix" public education. Let's make it fulfill its promises. So businessmen and community leaders and education researchers have successfully changed things up a bit and attempted to merge the best of both worlds (free market innovation and efficiency combined with tax-funding and government regulation). And now someone asks "why is education reform aimed at educators?" Well, because if educators don't reform, they're completely unnecessary.
"Looks like BRHS is going to be taken off this summer (word from DOE) and if you work at BRHS, you might want to attend the meeting. Your salary will be cut in half" Sounds like another loser who was cut or didn't make the cut...sorry bout your luck, Loser! We all really know who you are...don't make us state your name!
It would be nice to have a union president who spoke up for teachers and was not a puppet for Eugene White. She spends more time worrying about what snacks to serve at meetings than she does about worrying about teachers and students. Ann Wilkens needs to go.
What is your obsession with Ann Wilkens? Unions are losing favor all over the country, and Indiana recently passed legislation that decreased collective bargaining rights for teachers all over the state. And you think the local union president should somehow be able to do something? What on earth do you think she should do? I don't know Ann Wilkens from Adam, but I don't know why you focus on the small-time players (Mitch Daniels, Tony Bennett, Ann Wilkens) instead of the big-time players (Barack Obama, Arne Duncan, Randi Weingarten).
Mitch Daniels has not done one thing regarding education reform that wasn't already being pushed from the 'big-time' Washington, DC players - Obama and Arne Duncan. Daniels didn't dream up this reform stuff; Obama did and touted ed reform as one of his campaign planks. Read a good newspaper occasionally, watch the national news, chat with folks who live outside Indiana. Ed reform is happening in every state; it's absolutely non-partisan, too.
"Daniels didn't dream up this reform stuff; Obama did and touted ed reform as one of his campaign planks. Read a good newspaper occasionally, watch the national news, chat with folks who live outside Indiana. Ed reform is happening in every state;"
Reform is happening but NOT at the expense of experienced union teachers and public education. That's the big difference in Indiana. Not school choice and vouchers but screwing public education so that ALL education is either charters or religious schools. Duncan and Obama didn't like Indiana's plan because it was too punitive to public schools and teachers. That's why we LOST Race To the Top funding. Obama saw which direction this state was heading and he didn't approve. Reform is one thing, but rewarding all your corporate pals who run chatter skools with public education funds is just typical politics not true reform. That's OK because I know teachers who voted Mitch and Bennett in. They learned a valuable lesson about Indiana politics. This Indiana reform was in NO way non-partisan. Where are the jobs we voted for anyway?
OK, I'm curious. Many people seem to have an issue with "older" teachers. What is an "older" teacher? I started my career with IPS when I student taught 14 years ago. So, am I outdated? Am I "old"?
It's not only silly to call them chatter skools, but it identifies the poster as a single poster, the person who goes by ariel bender on the Star forums.
I think there is a comprehension problem. "Some veteran teachers are really bad teachers" is not the same thing as not valuing experience. It's identifying a problem. The teachers that the public pays the most money should provide the best service to the public, and too often, that's not the case. That doesn't mean that there aren't several top-notch veteran teachers. It just means there's a problem we need to solve. I think we're making some smart changes, but it will be a year or two before we start to see real evidence one way or the other.
Also, it's absolutely false that schools won't hire experienced teachers. They actually prefer experienced teachers. IPS is known for training teachers to go off to the more selective schools. Yes, the more experience you have, the more selective they are about hiring you. That makes sense, though. If you perform like a 3rd year teacher, they'd rather pay a 3rd year teacher than pay a 15-year teacher salary for 3-year-teacher performance. But experienced teachers who are good are worth their weight in gold and can teach anywhere they want. That's why it's so important to keep your own records, so you have objective data and don't have to rely solely on your references. Thumb through the teacher rosters of different schools. (You need to go to IDOE -> School Data -> Teacher Roster for each school) You'll see many teachers who were hired into the district with several years experience. It's not as easy getting hired at other schools as it is IPS, especially if you're experienced. They'll likely ask you to perform a sample lesson with real students, and/or answer complex interview questions,etc. But if you're a good teacher, don't ever think you're trapped in IPS, because you absolutely are not.
I think the above post highlights a change in perspective over the last 20 years that can cause a problem with veteran teachers. Referring to teachers as public servants, people who are being paid to serve the public, that's a fairly modern point of view. I agree with it, but I don't think many veteran teachers do. They don't see public education as being accountable to the public. They view education from more of a community/social order perspective. They view public education as a service to the state, not a service to the public. They believe they are part of an authority, and that the community should be subservient and accommodating, not the other way around. They find the idea of treating families like customers and competing for their business and approval vulgar and dishonorable. I don't think today's education system has room for much of that sort of thought. It has nothing to do with not valuing experience. Many experienced teachers have kept up with with changes in society and are awesome, just like others have said. But I think the change in attitudes about education over the years has left some of the oldest teachers kind of homeless in terms of ideology.
Yes, the newly hired Teach for America teachers who go to school for two summers and become licensed teachers consider you OLD. They also consider you lazy, burnt out and uncaring. They have been brainwashed into thinking that they are the answer. Of course, a huge number leave at the end of the two years, never to teach again. If the truth be known, they are mostly people with noneducation degrees who could not get jobs in their fields and needed a place to park themselves and earn money while they looked for jobs in their real field of interest.
It is mythology to think that veteran teachers have a real chance of interviewing for/getting a job in another school system.
A family member of mine - an excellent teacher with many years of experience - has been regularly told by superintendents/principals, "I'm sorry but we can't interview anyone with more than 2-3 years of experience. The budget, you know...."
One superintendent told her he might interview her if she would agree to go in at an experience level of a teacher with just a few years on the job. Thus, a pay cut of about 40 percent.
Oh, sure, someone can cite an exception. But veteran teachers who have actually been out knocking on doors will tell that they are not wanted.
I think it's a myth that schools don't hire experienced teachers. I know too many exceptions to that rule, and none that fit the rule. (All the teachers I personally know who have been unsuccessful at transferring either aren't very good or don't sell themselves well, haven't kept records, don't interview well, etc.) Like the poster above says, I think schools just get more selective the more experienced (and expensive) you are. I also think distribution plays a role as well. If you're experienced, you're more likely to get a job in a district that doesn't already have half of its teachers in your experience range. Principals like to keep an even mix of experience-ranges if they can.
This is actually one reason I'm glad that the evaluations are become more performance based. I think districts will be more likely to hire experienced teachers if they have quantifiable evidence that this teacher is worth the extra investment over an inexperienced teacher.
There is a some optimism here about the fates of experienced teachers - when the main issue in this state's dealing with public education and teachers is $$$$$$$$.
Experienced teachers don't get hired because they cost more than people coming fresh out of college. It's that simple.
The bottom line is the bottom dollar.
This will be readily apparent when, with the new state laws, good veteran teachers will be fired or riffed left and right.
Hamilton Southeastern hires veteran teachers all the time. Seriously, I would estimate 20% of their new hires are 20+ year teachers with Masters degrees, and 10% are -5 year teachers with Bachelors Degrees.
Your estimate is a little off, but your overall point is correct. I scanned the teacher roster for Hamilton Southeastern and of the first 20 new hires I found (which got me only halfway through the D-names, but still enough for a fair sample), 7 (35%) had less than 5 years of experience, 7 (35%) had 5-9 years of experience, 3 (15%) had 10-14 years, none in the 15-19 year range, and 3 (15%) with 20 or more years of experience. The most was 26 years with a Masters Degree.
What did the teacher's with the most experience teach? I can't see a district interviewing or hiring someone with 20+ years unless they were in an area of dire need. Since money comes first, especially in these troubled times where schools and teachers are very unpopular.
1. The references are past-tense. Hired. This was before the new state education laws ... i.e., vouchers, more charter schools, anticipated efforts to generally reduce teacher pay and compensation.
2. The stats cited sure don't excite me. Six of a total 20 hires with between 10-26 years of experience. And that in a district of affluent people.
The poster above this one has it right: money does come first and teachers are very unpopular.
Why isn't the Indianapolis Teachers Association doing something like this?
May 5, 2011
Vigo teachers likely to OK new contract Howard Greninger The Tribune-Star The Tribune Star Thu May 05, 2011, 05:02 AM EDT
TERRE HAUTE —
Vigo County teachers were expected to approve a new two-year contract Wednesday with the Vigo County School Corp.
About 894 teachers were eligible to cast a ballot Wednesday, said Mark Lee, president of the Vigo County Teachers Association. The outcome was not available at presstime Wednesday.
Lee said the association sought to pass a new contract that attempts “to keep as much as possible intact from the previous contract.”
A new state law taking effect July 1 allows only a two-year contract and restricts collective bargaining topics. For instance, teacher unions won’t be able to negotiate items such as school calendars, class size, teaching conditions or teacher evaluation procedures.Under the new law, contracts after July 1 can cover only wage and wage-related benefits.
If accepted by teachers, the contract would go before the Vigo County School Board on May 16 for ratification of the contract.
Vigo Superintendent Dan Tanoos said Wednesday he disagrees with restricting collective bargaining rights.
“The state has chosen to take over every other part of public education, it seems, and now they are trying to tell us what we can and can’t give our employees,” Tanoos said.
“I think that is unfortunate because I think we have been very responsible, both from the administrative and school board position and from the teachers association and other employee groups, to keep in mind what is best for the school corporation,” Tanoos said.
He also said Gov. Mitch Daniels and Superintendent of Public Instruction Tony Bennett “choose to punish all school corporations for a few bad contracts around the state. The legislature and governor blame teachers for bad contracts. I think they have forgotten that a superintendent also has to agree to let them have that contract.
“Collective bargaining is two sides sitting down to hammer out an agreement that is best for employees and the school system. We have done that locally in my years as superintendent,” Tanoos said.
After this contract, Tanoos said, “it will have some ramifications for insurance purposes for employees. We are a solvent school system and supposedly we have good benefits for our staff and now they [the state] will tell us what kind of benefits we can provide for our staff,” Tanoos said.
“I don’t think this [new law] should be an open door for superintendents to treat their employees poorly because they can only bargain salary and benefits,” Tanoos said. “I have heard rumors that there will be changes in job descriptions, in hours and days, based upon the fact that collective bargaining is going out the door, but I wouldn’t want to disrespect my employees in that way.”
Tanoos said administrative officials were hoping for a ratification of the contract from teachers.
“We would hope that in two years there will be a governor and a state superintendent and legislators who have a respect for public education,” Tanoos said.
Howard Greninger can be reached at (812) 231-4204 or howard.greninger@tribstar.com.
Cause most schools corporations deep down like the idea that they control/keep the fear with the teachers. They prefer to be able to rif whomever especially when they need to cut budgets. I've heard several school corps are talking about extending the teachers work days by one hour. That allows students to have free tutoring and homebound pay will go bye bye because teachers can be appointed to teach for that extra hour or whatever the school corp. decides. It will save schools thousands of dollars by taking advantage of salaried workers. I can also see school corps requiring teachers to add an additional 2 hr. weekly to their schedules placing them in after schoo detentions and Saturday tutoring classes. Believe me there is a plan and it isn't going to be good. I hope Tanoos is right and the next election will oust the state superintendent. Unfortunately many people go to the polls and vote not knowing the issues. Teachers better be heard loud and clear the next election!!!
To the folks who say it's all about the money, to some extent you are right, and yes, choice and vouchers make the schools have to work even harder to get/keep student funding. And it's obvious ariel bender has never taken an economics course. But I assure you, school administrators have. It doesn't save a principal money to hire a bunch of new teachers if there is an experienced one with proven success. The problem is that most experienced teachers don't have proven success. But the ones that do will beat out a new teacher every time. It's not just in Hamilton County. Any school will hire an excellent experienced teacher if they can swing it. It saves them on tutoring and remediation, and from losing that student funding completely if he moves to another school. I realize you're trying to paint a picture of doom and gloom, but it's simply not an accurate picture. Teachers have as much control over their careers and job transfers as any other occupation.
Also, if you're a good teacher, but you don't teach a high-need area, is it so bad to add Math, Science, or Special Ed to your license if you want to leave the district?
"Teachers have as much control over their careers and job transfers as any other occupation." __________________ Are you a teacher with 15 or more years of experience? If so, have you ever PERSONALLY been out applying for a teaching job in another school district?
Speculative theory and reality are often far apart.
It's seriously time to scrap the entire IPS model. With such a dysfunctional district and stigma surrounding its name, there's little to remedy the situation without a total transformation into a much smaller district limited to Center Township students.
Transformation means ridding IPS of the dysfunctional stigma that surrounds it. Accomplishing that would mean closing IPS and disbanding the current central office administration; reopen a much smaller township school district and call it Center Township School District.
Center Township is the CENTER SQUARE of Marion County. The boundaries are 38th street to the north, Belmont Avenue on the west, Emerson Avenue on the east and Troy Avenue on the south. If a student's address is outside of Center Township, the student would attend their home township school.
"Speculative theory and reality are often far apart." Couldn't agree more. Do you have any objective data to support your claim that schools are passing up effective, experienced teachers for less expensive, less effective teachers? Otherwise, your personal opinions might be clouding your observation of reality.
I agree with the Center Township idea and giving the other township parts back to the townships, but I'd keep the magnet programs. In fact, if it was cost effective, I'd change the magnet programs to charter schools so parents in other districts could enroll without paying tuition.
Will IPS settle a teacher contract before the new laws kick in? A number of districts are getting multiple year contracts settled very soon. Is the Indianapolis NEA doing this?
ReplyDeleteIPS has been hiring teachers without education degrees for years. They have three years to get licensed, but it still amounts to the same thing -- unlicensed teachers being allowed to teach kids. Why act all indignant about it when charter schools do it?
ReplyDeleteIt would be nice to hear from our union about our contract. They seem to have forgotten we need one of those.
ReplyDelete"It would be nice to hear from our union about our contract."
ReplyDeleteTry reading your emails from your building AR, or check out the IEA website. Negotiations are underway but the IPS team is trying to delay settling so they can wait for more favorable legislation (for them, that is) that will let them eviscerate the teachers and union. If you bothered to read what's going on, you would realize we're about to be screwed badly by the legislature and IPS, and all without the courtesy of a kiss afterwards or so much as a thank you.
well my IEA representative does nothing to inform us
ReplyDeleteI can't find the IEA website, and my rep isn't computer savvy enough to give me a clue. What am I payoing for?
ReplyDeleteI agree and wonder the same thing. What are we paying our union to do?
ReplyDeleteI can't tell you how many times I've emailed questions and got the run around. The time I got laid off and asked for assistance because I thought the recalls and hiring outside the district while rif's were sitting there was wrong I was told the union could not/would not get involved.
Is the union helpless? After watching the politicians destroy everything we once stood for I am leaning towards thinking the unions have destroyed themselves here in Indiana
@we're about to be screwed badly by the legislature
ReplyDeleteAll Indiana educators have already been f***** regarding collective bargaining (WISH-TV, Thursday, April 21). IEA, ISTA and AFT are all lobbying feverishly against the last two impending educational "reforms". The legislation passed last week is step one against all labor unions, not just educators' associations.
This is one time IPS is not the main cause of this rape, although Big Gene could eliminate many the top-heavy salaried population of the Ed Center and Forest Manor. Problem? He'd place those individuals back in the classroom, yanking more positions from our younger teachers.
Gee, I don't know. Would you want someone who studies brain surgery as a hobby working on your child? I'd prefer that a *licensed* brain surgeon work her!
ReplyDeleteThe union has done nothing. After 30 years as a member, I'll probably quit the union.
ReplyDeleteMany school districts are getting multi-year contracts settled before June 1. IPS should move to get this accomplished as well.
ReplyDeleteNow IPS' wiz kids are spending thousands of dollars to recruit those students who dropped out of school. They (Mary Louise) says they are not trying to recruit from other school systems.
ReplyDeleteFrom where is that money coming?
The state pays $8000 per student, also stated by ML, so spending $15,000 to bring back two students is money well spent.
From WRTV/Channel 6, 4/25/2011
ReplyDeleteINDIANAPOLIS -- A bill linking teacher pay with student performance has won final legislative approval and now heads to Gov. Mitch Daniels for his signature.
The Senate voted 36-13 for the merit pay bill, which is part of Daniels' expansive education agenda.
Under the bill, teachers would be evaluated annually. Only those in the top two of four categories would be eligible for certain pay raises. Local districts would create their own evaluations, but would have to include objective measures of student achievement, such as test scores.
IEA President Ann Wilkins appear to me to be in the back pocket of Eugene White. She has been silent this year.
ReplyDeleteSilent? She's comatose.
ReplyDelete"Many school districts are getting multi-year contracts settled before June 1."
ReplyDeleteyippee
Franklin Township settled for no increase in wages, and decreases in the township's health insurance contributions.
It's a lose-lose for everyone!
It seems like Ann Wilkins is simply reflecting the apathy from IEA/ISTA members. When was the last time YOU attended a meeting or rally?
I have been extremely active. Ann is president. Where is she?
ReplyDeleteFranklin Township could also lose all of their Special Area teachers and transportation will no longer be available.
ReplyDeleteI agree, where was the members, how many meetings, rallies, and letters did you send as a member of IEA? Nothing! I had to laugh at the fool teacher who was working the GOP phone lines on television, I hope you are prould of you choice. Mitch will dump your high paid self, and then see how poverty looks when you lose your home and vehicles.
ReplyDeleteAre you capable of posting without insulting people who think differently than you. You insult Republicans, Democrats who support education reform, Democrats who support charter schools, urban students, involved parents (helicopter parents), uninvolved parents (don't care), charter school teachers, young teachers, non-union teachers, any teacher who says they are effective, black administrators, lesbian administrators, administrators with speech impediments, and administrators who dress badly. Did I miss anyone? And instead of actually discussing anything, you just throw out insults and idiotic doom-and-gloom predictions. Could you possibly be more divisive?
ReplyDeleteWell merit pay passed. Let the cheating begin!
ReplyDeleteI cheated today! How else can I keep my job!
ReplyDeleteCheating wouldn't work unless 100% of the teachers cheated. Otherwise, it would be easy to spot because a pattern would emerge of students testing really well in Mr. Smith's class, but not testing well the next year. It would become obvious that Mr. Smith was a fraud.
ReplyDelete@ how else can I keep my job
ReplyDeleteWould you accept that kind of logic from a cheating student? If he or she justified cheating because he/she wouldn't be able to keep up grades, scholarships, etc. based on his/her own merit? Would you sympathize with the student?
Cheating is a slippery slope. Once you are "successful" and your scores are great, you are obliged to continue the cheating process forever. Once you stop manipulating your students' scores, you 'll look like a total failure. You also set up those teachers who get your kids, since they will be obligated to match your stellar scores, or look ineffective trying.
ReplyDeleteHow would you like your doctor tell you that your health is fine, then you go into a diabetic coma. "But the doctor said I was fine!"
Cheating sucks, and hurts everyone.
Cheating has been going on for years by both teachers and principals. Even some who appear in commercials made for Daniels. Sometimes tests of poor performing students get 'lost" and never are scored.
ReplyDeleteOh I didn't cheat. I was just fooling around with you people. Besides, I didn't know the right answers.
ReplyDeleteThese questions are worthless. What happened to exposing the hidden workings of the system? People need to know what's going on behind the scenes. There's a lot happening now, but no mention of it here.
ReplyDeleteDream on if you think IPS is going to settle a contract anytime soon. While they have no contract they can continue to spend money on administrators...and when every red cent is gone Gene White will take his cronies and retire to some island with out an extradition treaty.
ReplyDeleteI think the "hidden workings of the system" go hand in hand with reform issues. The same "b.s." that negatively impacts teachers ability to teach and their working environment also negatively impacts students' ability to learn and their learning environments. I'm surprised how many teachers will criticize IPS administration in one breath and then in the next breath get defensive at the idea that students' families and the general public could be fed up as well.
ReplyDeleteI cheated on all of my students work, and I am going to get a huge raise from Mitch/Bennett. I will do this for another ten years, stash the money and Mitch will be dumb to write the checks. I will have security that most teachers have no idea only takes a few minutes. I will do what it takes, sorry for the next grade teacher who loses with my "outstanding stduent".
ReplyDeleteI beened substituting for five years now, I knowed how to handle the childes and my Jeneral Studies degree is all that I needed. We be paying teacheres too much money. I be glad that Bosman, Mitched, and Bennett be taking teacheres down, they act like theyed knew everything.
ReplyDeleteSee, this is the caliber of teacher we have "protecting" public education. Immature, insecure people who will get mean, cheat, and lie if they have to.
ReplyDeleteMy God the grammar police is going to have a "field day" on the statement printed above by a member of what group?
ReplyDeleteTeachers!
ReplyDeleteGrapevine Talk: IPS is dumping that no count INSAI. True or false?
ReplyDeleteWhat is INSAI?
ReplyDeleteI sure hope so. INSAI is worthless. Tons of work, no real reward.
ReplyDeleteIndiana Student Achievement Institute
ReplyDeleteI believe we are now officially screwed. Thanks legislators!
ReplyDeleteScrewed, and gave us STD that will slowly kill us. I am so proud of all the teachers who voted for Mitch and Tony, may you feel the pain of a 1/3 paycheck starting in August.
ReplyDeleteI heard Curriculum Mapping is going away too.
ReplyDeleteThe union still has control of salaries at IPS, but vouchers will likely cause teacher salaries at nonunion schools to increase because schools will be wanting to recruit the best teachers, particularly teachers with success with high-risk students. People who have sacrificed money, respect, and working conditions to work with urban youth will finally be seen as the valuable resources they are. Take a Valium and an economics course, jeez.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me, the union has control of salaries... that is scary, the union has little control over salaries, and when IPS had an opportunity to change the salary schedule they ignored it...years ago teachers were given an un-negotiated 10% raise, that could have been a flat rate raise, which would have benefited IPS by raising the starting salaries of new teachers, and not really raising senior teachers salaries that much.
ReplyDeleteThat goes that ignorant age and experience bias again. Why would you even think that giving much larger raises to new teacherw and not really raising senior teacher salaries that much would even approach being fair? Why do you value experience BS classroom tested skills so little? Could it be your selfish greed???
ReplyDeleteLook at the board report for April. Several Assistant Principals who were to be let go due to "reductions in Administrative positions" are stil employed by IPS with new titles. I don't know what a "Principal Practitioner" does, but I do know that "Administrators on Special Assignment" are a waste of tax dollars. These people were NOT notified by January 1st that they would not have a job; therfore IPS is obligated to keep them employed at their inflated salaries- for doing very little to earn that money. You would think that IPS would have learned their lesson when a few years back they also failed to dismiss administrators in a timely mannner and so we had people walking around earning 6 figure salaries checking for weeds in the sidewalk cracks and reporting dust bunnies in the corner of the cafeteria. If IPS has to keep these administrators employed, at least put them in the classroom- that is real work!!!
ReplyDeleteMost of them are going back into the classroom--with a principal's salary.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, Curriculum Mapping is history.
They knew, they chose to do wait. And giving a flat rate raise would have made sense for the district. Say a beginning teacher makes $30,000 and a ten percent raise would be $300. where as a senior teacher makes $60,000 and that ten percent is $600. A flat raise of $500 would have raised both their salaries, and helped the system attract new teachers and keep those new teachers.
ReplyDeleteIf I were recruiting in the townships I would be skimming the cream from IPS third and fourth year teachers. Raising the beginning salary might have prevented that from happening.
Does anyone know how the new laws affect administrators, perhaps those deadlines are gone?
"A group of local power brokers is quietly assembling a plan that would transfer control of Indianapolis Public Schools to the Indianapolis mayor."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ibj.com/should-indianapolis-mayor-control-ips/PARAMS/article/26873
http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2011/04/27/29kohn.h30.html?tkn=MZCCXmxR4KBv7qg7ff6nyksQpRda1pHclLY+&cmp=clp-sb-ascd
ReplyDeleteTake a look at this and see if you think it applies to what you see everyday at your school.
Bet you will find it describes what has happened in IPS...what a shame.
Just a bit from the article- it is not really about race, but about socio-economic circumstance
ReplyDelete"Earlier this year, Natalie Hopkinson, an African-American writer, put it this way in an article on theRoot.com called “The McEducation of the Negro”: “In the name of reform ... education—for those ‘failing’ urban kids, anyway—is about learning the rules and following directions. Not critical thinking. Not creativity. It’s about how to correctly eliminate three out of four bubbles.”
Wow, the article contradicts itself all over the place. Yes, I think IPS uses a dumbing-down curriculum and allows/encourages a hostile environment that middle class and wealthy parents would not stand for. But that's the cause of reform, not the result of it. The other schools don't do this. People here have complained about it. They accuse the charter schools of "catering" to parents and students like it's a bad thing, but they're right. Schools like IPS holds kids and their intellect hostage. Teachers see students, parents, and the community as enemies that need to be conquered, not someone they need to collaborate with or answer to.
ReplyDeleteAnd we don't have to choose between test scores and thoughtful, analytical students. It's almost impossible to properly educate children without that being reflected in test scores.
I'm an IPS teacher with more than 10 years experience, so it's not like I want IPS to get taken over or collapse or anything. But this article is neither analytical nor thoughtful. IPS is underserving most of its students. That's a fact. It's proven. It's not disputable, at least not by any data-based or research-based criteria. My hope is that the reform measures push IPS to do more of what the charter schools are doing. But they're not going to be able to do that if we can't even admit that there's a problem that we have the power and responsibility to fix. As long as we throw the blame back on parents, then I support families being able to go to schools where they are respected as if they were middle class or wealthy parents.
I'm all for the reforms when they involve choice for students. But the takeover by the mayor is undemocratic. They are taking control away from an elected body and giving it to a single government official. That's dangerous, no matter what you think of the current mayor.
ReplyDeleteMr. God, Mayor McBallard will have an outstanding performance with IPS. Just like when he took over IMPD and the Sheriff Department? Feel safe and sound in your home, car, shopping, and going to the bank. Not. McBallard will just hire old white men from the Goldsmith days, who have no idea about what is going on in the real world.
ReplyDelete@Ballard will just hire old white men from the Goldsmith days, who have no idea about what is going on in the real world.
ReplyDeleteWhoa, there. Them's fightin' words...not nice and definitely both a gender and a racial slur.
Is this going to open a new administration position for teacher evaluators since principals will probably not have the time to evaluate every teacher every year?
ReplyDeleteOne position? Try twenty administration positions, then ten administrators to oversee the twenty, then Reggie White will be placed in charge of the whole project for a pay raise of twenty thousands dollars.
ReplyDeleteBallard only has a few females on his staff, and most are like Mutz, folks who should of been retired years ago. Not one person on the Charter School Board has any idea about what they are doing, not one. Sarah Taylor-Baker is the only one and she is in charge of the Mayor's Action Center. By the way I am near sixty and a white male, I just have a problem with folks not any knowledge or experience in the area they are ruling on for the city.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Eugene White will start importing relatives in from other states. He still has new jobs he could create for them. Most of his local relatives already have IPS jobs.
ReplyDeleteIt is high time for me to throw in the towel. Since 2nd grade, I have dreamed of teaching. I never ever wanted to do anything else. However, I don't agree with so much of the reform that is taking place in IPS and statewide. I give it my all everyday. I expect my students to exceed the state standards. My students give it their all. However, the bureaucratic yahoos elected into office just don't seem to think that is enough.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what I can do outside of education with a BS in Elementary Education, but I don't think that I can take all of this teacher-bashing and the lack of support from the community and government any longer.
Well said.
ReplyDeleteThe bashing started with politicians who wanted to get the public backing to takeover our schools for their own personal agendas. (Definitely not choices made to help students, so money must be the reason)
Teachers have worked so hard to prepare our children for the future. It is so sad that the teachers have been made out to be the "bad" guys and the general public fell right in line.
Sad situations will arise for students in the future as great teachers will be leaving on their own or let go to make room for the robots that the politicians will replace caring people with
Good luck finding a job where you aren't pressured to do better and/or constantly worried about being laid off or downsized. I sympathize with anyone stressing about their job, but how in God's name do teachers get the idea that they should be protected from the same job pressures and economic forces that the rest of the country has to deal with?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01eggers.html?_r=1
ReplyDeleteHilter did the same with blaming certain groups of people for the hyper-inflation and depression that had Germany in it's grip. Little Mitch is made from the same cloth, and the sad part is that he will fail after taking millions with him. Just like IPL, where the employees lost their entire 401K money and were left broke, headed into retrirement.
ReplyDeleteI honestly think that teachers like you encourage rather than argue against reform. In fact, I sometimes wonder if you're even anti-reform at all, or if you intentionally post as if you were a self-serving, not every intelligent, pro-union, pro-liberal veteran teacher so that the need for reform seems more obvious. If that's not the case, then I'm afraid you really should leave teaching. There's no way you can possibly teach children to think critically or make lessons relevant to the real world when you don't have the ability to think critically and don't understand the real world yourself. There are many smart, logical arguments for every conceivable position in the education reform debate. And your posts never even come close to trying to be logical. They're just silliness. You could use posts as examples for a 5th grade classroom on the kind of charged, distracting arguments you should ignore when trying to understand an issue, as opposed to the logical, fact-based theses.
ReplyDeleteTo whom are you referring?
ReplyDeleteDowntown is posting again.
ReplyDeleteI think teachers would get more respect in the community if we abandoned the union. Regardless of how or why they originated, putting teachers in the same category as police officers, electricians, etc. creates the perception that teaching is a skilled trade, something that anyone can be trained to do and do the exact same way every single time. In those cases, we unionize and pay for seniority because otherwise it would be cheaper to replace experienced workers with cheaper workers. Teaching isn't like that. Teaching is a profession, more like being a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, which require analysis of each case, and many complex decisions. In professions, experience usually increases performance (experienced professionals are usually better than new professionals). If not, there is a problem. If you have a medical practice where the new doctors are better than the experienced doctors, your experienced doctors are obviously not keeping up with new advancements in medicine. Otherwise experienced doctors would know everything new doctors know, plus everything they've learned and experienced up to then. The same goes for teaching. The only reason so many newer teachers are outperforming so many veteran teachers, is because the veteran teachers are ineffective. There's no other possible explanation. By protecting those teachers and giving them the highest pay, the union isn't protecting teachers, it's digging our grave. Without the union, ineffective teachers would either have to get better or leave, just like in other professions. The community will never see us as real professionals, as opposed to tradesmen, until WE see ourselves as real professionals as opposed to tradesmen.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think pay tiers should be more performance based, just like the real world. If you are awesome, you should get more money. If you're not a better teacher than you were last year, you shouldn't make more money than last year. But layoffs should still be seniority-based. That's how everyone does layoffs, even corporations.
ReplyDeleteBut the whole issue is who gets to say you're awesome?
ReplyDeleteI don't believe corporations (ones with no unions anyway) are honoring the rif by seniority anymore. They to are finding ways around keeping the better employee. Just had a friend who had been with his corp. for 11 years get rif'ed and another guy who started 2 years after him is staying on the job.
ReplyDelete@If you have a medical practice where the new doctors are better than the experienced doctors, your experienced doctors are obviously not keeping up with new advancements in medicine. Otherwise experienced doctors would know everything new doctors know, plus everything they've learned and experienced up to then. The same goes for teaching. The only reason so many newer teachers are outperforming so many veteran teachers, is because the veteran teachers are ineffective. There's no other possible explanation. By protecting those teachers and giving them the highest pay, the union isn't protecting teachers, it's digging our grave. Without the union, ineffective teachers would either have to get better or leave, just like in other professions. The community will never see us as real professionals, as opposed to tradesmen, until WE see ourselves as real professionals as opposed to tradesmen.
ReplyDeleteAmen to your post, especially the part I copied and pasted above. My husband is a dentist; he's experienced; he's almost 60; however, he speaks frequently about fellow dentists who graduated in his same class at the IU School of Dentistry. Some of his classmates have thriving, booming practices because they've invested considerable time, large amounts of personal money, and significant effort into attending expensive trainings and into updating their offices/practice areas with state-of-the art dental instruments and equipment.
On the other hand, some of his fellow classmates are still working in the same offices they opened back in the 1970's, using the exact same instruments/equipment and procedures that were standard in the 1970's. As could be expected, these fellow dentists' practices are not thriving and not growing. Their work is adequate, but it's adequate by 1970's standards. These are not 'bad' dentists, but they're getting by, just barely, with out-dated practices and 'old school' attitudes.
I just get a kick out of those who continually try to get everyone believing that "older" teachers are ineffective, lazy, whatever.
ReplyDeleteWHO says? WHO really knows? I work with a two gentlemen teachers who are in their 70's. STILL effective, spend their summers studying and traveling to update their experiences to share with their students. They can do this because their families are raised and they can devote much more time to their profession.
As in every profession there are those who stagnate and those who move on.
I have heard many young teachers complain about spending time because they have families, or part time jobs etc., so there are good, bad and indifferent at both ends.
Who care about age?
I can guarantee you our fine military doesn't have to many colonels right out of the academies.
NOPE
experience
experience
experience
Looks like BRHS is going to be taken off this summer (word from DOE) and if you work at BRHS, you might want to attend the meeting. Your salary will be cut in half, state insurance, reduced sick days, and no TRF! All of the existing teachers will have to apply to DOE for their jobs. Most of the teachers will not make the cut and IPS will make them long term substitutes. Oh, God where will Linda Davis end up at? I hope a nice school where she can work from home and the bar (close by)will give her a tab.
ReplyDelete"I just get a kick out of those who continually try to get everyone believing that "older" teachers are ineffective, lazy, whatever. "
ReplyDeleteIt's done for two reasons. First schools have always hired the cheapest. Resumes and experience mean nothing. It's who you know. Especially in Wayne Township where they are the highest paid. Secondly, taking away experienced teachers' job security further weakens an already weak union. This infatuation over new teachers is hilarious. There's a reason why the burnout factor is around 5 years. They come in all starry eyed but once a parent tells them to go to hell or a student tells them off then the reality check comes in. Then when they see their low salary that's it. Like most young professionals they spend their time in bars and eventually get married and go on maternity leave.It's all politics and it worked for Mitch and his crew. Teachers are now grouped with overpaid Detroit autoworkers. Just like some people think ALL poor people are deadbeats who are on welfare all their life. They have conveniently created those stereotypes for their corporate gains.
"I think teachers would get more respect in the community if we abandoned the union. "
ReplyDeleteWhat union? The one that didn't get air conditioning in our 80 year old run down building where there are 25 to a classroom? Same desks as when Lugar went to school there? One toilet in the staff men's restroom? What union? The same union that negotiates working conditions? Yeah they have plenty of clout. The hillbillies in this red state associate teachers with voting Democrat and they are just taking it out on teachers. Parents won't respect teachers ever, union or no union, no matter what...never have. That's why there is STILL a need for a GOOD union. We are expected to raise these kids and babysit. Won't change till the policymakers call it like it is and risk losing votes. So it will NEVER happen in Indiana.
"In fact, I sometimes wonder if you're even anti-reform at all, or if you intentionally post as if you were a self-serving, not every intelligent, pro-union, pro-liberal veteran teacher so that the need for reform seems more obvious. If that's not the case, then I'm afraid you really should leave teaching. There's no way you can possibly teach children to think critically or make lessons relevant to the real world when you don't have the ability to think critically and don't understand the real world yourself. " Oh please...I work with a right-wing goon who hates Obama and couldn't stand when he got elected. Even leaves internet crap in our lounge about him. He's still effective as teacher..he just doesn't teach history or current events in the school. Reform is OK but where's REFORM FOR educators not aimed AT educators? Who the hell are you to say who should leave teaching?
ReplyDeleteBefore public education, we had the most educated, literate populace in the world in a completely privatized system. Even poor kids had the opportunity to become literate in classes taught by church women. Apprenticeship contracts were legally required to include education clauses. The exceptions were slave children in the south and immigrant children, as well as children of parents who didn't value education and didn't use the opportunities available to them. Public education was based on three promises -- 1, that we could educate children out of poverty, 2, that we could educate children even if their parents didn't value education, and 3, that we could force western culture on immigrants from non-Western countries, as well as slaves and Native Americans. Now 200 years later, we know that it's all b.s. Public education wasn't able to keep any of its promises. Meanwhile, it has created a corrupt industry that robs taxpayers of billions of dollars every year to create an education system that is less effective than when the government did absolutely nothing. The logical conclusion is we should just return to privatization. But that's blasphemy to the uneducated, which unfortunately is most of our population, including the people employed in our education system. So then the middle ground is reform. Let's "fix" public education. Let's make it fulfill its promises. So businessmen and community leaders and education researchers have successfully changed things up a bit and attempted to merge the best of both worlds (free market innovation and efficiency combined with tax-funding and government regulation). And now someone asks "why is education reform aimed at educators?" Well, because if educators don't reform, they're completely unnecessary.
ReplyDelete"Looks like BRHS is going to be taken off this summer (word from DOE) and if you work at BRHS, you might want to attend the meeting. Your salary will be cut in half"
ReplyDeleteSounds like another loser who was cut or didn't make the cut...sorry bout your luck, Loser! We all really know who you are...don't make us state your name!
@sorry bout your luck, Loser! We all really know who you are...don't make us state your name!
ReplyDelete______________________________________________
Well, since the remainder of the good folks here don't have any idea what you're talking about, how's about giving us a name?
So is Broad Ripple being taken over by the state? or off probation?
ReplyDeleteOkay, BR Haters! Not true! We heard it straight from the horse's mouth two weeks ago. Broad Ripple is NOT being taken over by the state.
ReplyDeleteHorse's mouth or horse's ass?
ReplyDeleteSometimes I can't tell the difference, since so much crap emerges from both ends.
Also, which horse? Mitch? Tony? Big Gene?
It would be nice to have a union president who spoke up for teachers and was not a puppet for Eugene White. She spends more time worrying about what snacks to serve at meetings than she does about worrying about teachers and students. Ann Wilkens needs to go.
ReplyDeleteWhat is your obsession with Ann Wilkens? Unions are losing favor all over the country, and Indiana recently passed legislation that decreased collective bargaining rights for teachers all over the state. And you think the local union president should somehow be able to do something? What on earth do you think she should do? I don't know Ann Wilkens from Adam, but I don't know why you focus on the small-time players (Mitch Daniels, Tony Bennett, Ann Wilkens) instead of the big-time players (Barack Obama, Arne Duncan, Randi Weingarten).
ReplyDeleteMitch Daniels has not done one thing regarding education reform that wasn't already being pushed from the 'big-time' Washington, DC players - Obama and Arne Duncan. Daniels didn't dream up this reform stuff; Obama did and touted ed reform as one of his campaign planks. Read a good newspaper occasionally, watch the national news, chat with folks who live outside Indiana. Ed reform is happening in every state; it's absolutely non-partisan, too.
ReplyDeleteAnn Wilkins is invisible. Even if she can't get something changed, she should be available and visible to members. She isn't!!!
ReplyDelete"Daniels didn't dream up this reform stuff; Obama did and touted ed reform as one of his campaign planks. Read a good newspaper occasionally, watch the national news, chat with folks who live outside Indiana. Ed reform is happening in every state;"
ReplyDeleteReform is happening but NOT at the expense of experienced union teachers and public education. That's the big difference in Indiana. Not school choice and vouchers but screwing public education so that ALL education is either charters or religious schools. Duncan and Obama didn't like Indiana's plan because it was too punitive to public schools and teachers. That's why we LOST Race To the Top funding. Obama saw which direction this state was heading and he didn't approve. Reform is one thing, but rewarding all your corporate pals who run chatter skools with public education funds is just typical politics not true reform. That's OK because I know teachers who voted Mitch and Bennett in. They learned a valuable lesson about Indiana politics. This Indiana reform was in NO way non-partisan. Where are the jobs we voted for anyway?
calling them chatter skools is really stupid
ReplyDeleteOK, I'm curious. Many people seem to have an issue with "older" teachers. What is an "older" teacher? I started my career with IPS when I student taught 14 years ago. So, am I outdated? Am I "old"?
ReplyDeleteIF you have more than 5 years of experience you are OLD. You won't get a job anywhere since you have "too much" experience. That makes you old.
ReplyDeleteSad isn't it, how education is the only profession that doesn't value experience?
It's not only silly to call them chatter skools, but it identifies the poster as a single poster, the person who goes by ariel bender on the Star forums.
ReplyDeleteI think there is a comprehension problem. "Some veteran teachers are really bad teachers" is not the same thing as not valuing experience. It's identifying a problem. The teachers that the public pays the most money should provide the best service to the public, and too often, that's not the case. That doesn't mean that there aren't several top-notch veteran teachers. It just means there's a problem we need to solve. I think we're making some smart changes, but it will be a year or two before we start to see real evidence one way or the other.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's absolutely false that schools won't hire experienced teachers. They actually prefer experienced teachers. IPS is known for training teachers to go off to the more selective schools. Yes, the more experience you have, the more selective they are about hiring you. That makes sense, though. If you perform like a 3rd year teacher, they'd rather pay a 3rd year teacher than pay a 15-year teacher salary for 3-year-teacher performance. But experienced teachers who are good are worth their weight in gold and can teach anywhere they want. That's why it's so important to keep your own records, so you have objective data and don't have to rely solely on your references. Thumb through the teacher rosters of different schools. (You need to go to IDOE -> School Data -> Teacher Roster for each school) You'll see many teachers who were hired into the district with several years experience. It's not as easy getting hired at other schools as it is IPS, especially if you're experienced. They'll likely ask you to perform a sample lesson with real students, and/or answer complex interview questions,etc. But if you're a good teacher, don't ever think you're trapped in IPS, because you absolutely are not.
I think the above post highlights a change in perspective over the last 20 years that can cause a problem with veteran teachers. Referring to teachers as public servants, people who are being paid to serve the public, that's a fairly modern point of view. I agree with it, but I don't think many veteran teachers do. They don't see public education as being accountable to the public. They view education from more of a community/social order perspective. They view public education as a service to the state, not a service to the public. They believe they are part of an authority, and that the community should be subservient and accommodating, not the other way around. They find the idea of treating families like customers and competing for their business and approval vulgar and dishonorable. I don't think today's education system has room for much of that sort of thought. It has nothing to do with not valuing experience. Many experienced teachers have kept up with with changes in society and are awesome, just like others have said. But I think the change in attitudes about education over the years has left some of the oldest teachers kind of homeless in terms of ideology.
ReplyDeleteYes, the newly hired Teach for America teachers who go to school for two summers and become licensed teachers consider you OLD. They also consider you lazy, burnt out and uncaring. They have been brainwashed into thinking that they are the answer. Of course, a huge number leave at the end of the two years, never to teach again. If the truth be known, they are mostly people with noneducation degrees who could not get jobs in their fields and needed a place to park themselves and earn money while they looked for jobs in their real field of interest.
ReplyDeleteIt is mythology to think that veteran teachers have a real chance of interviewing for/getting a job in another school system.
ReplyDeleteA family member of mine - an excellent teacher with many years of experience - has been regularly told by superintendents/principals, "I'm sorry but we can't interview anyone with more than 2-3 years of experience. The budget, you know...."
One superintendent told her he might interview her if she would agree to go in at an experience level of a teacher with just a few years on the job. Thus, a pay cut of about 40 percent.
Oh, sure, someone can cite an exception. But veteran teachers who have actually been out knocking on doors will tell that they are not wanted.
I think it's a myth that schools don't hire experienced teachers. I know too many exceptions to that rule, and none that fit the rule. (All the teachers I personally know who have been unsuccessful at transferring either aren't very good or don't sell themselves well, haven't kept records, don't interview well, etc.) Like the poster above says, I think schools just get more selective the more experienced (and expensive) you are. I also think distribution plays a role as well. If you're experienced, you're more likely to get a job in a district that doesn't already have half of its teachers in your experience range. Principals like to keep an even mix of experience-ranges if they can.
ReplyDeleteThis is actually one reason I'm glad that the evaluations are become more performance based. I think districts will be more likely to hire experienced teachers if they have quantifiable evidence that this teacher is worth the extra investment over an inexperienced teacher.
ReplyDeleteThere is a some optimism here about the fates of experienced teachers - when the main issue in this state's dealing with public education and teachers is $$$$$$$$.
ReplyDeleteExperienced teachers don't get hired because they cost more than people coming fresh out of college. It's that simple.
The bottom line is the bottom dollar.
This will be readily apparent when, with the new state laws, good veteran teachers will be fired or riffed left and right.
Hamilton Southeastern hires veteran teachers all the time. Seriously, I would estimate 20% of their new hires are 20+ year teachers with Masters degrees, and 10% are -5 year teachers with Bachelors Degrees.
ReplyDeleteYour estimate is a little off, but your overall point is correct. I scanned the teacher roster for Hamilton Southeastern and of the first 20 new hires I found (which got me only halfway through the D-names, but still enough for a fair sample), 7 (35%) had less than 5 years of experience, 7 (35%) had 5-9 years of experience, 3 (15%) had 10-14 years, none in the 15-19 year range, and 3 (15%) with 20 or more years of experience. The most was 26 years with a Masters Degree.
ReplyDeleteWhat did the teacher's with the most experience teach? I can't see a district interviewing or hiring someone with 20+ years unless they were in an area of dire need.
ReplyDeleteSince money comes first, especially in these troubled times where schools and teachers are very unpopular.
Two comments on the Hamilton SE discussion:
ReplyDelete1. The references are past-tense. Hired. This was before the new state education laws ... i.e., vouchers, more charter schools, anticipated efforts to generally reduce teacher pay and compensation.
2. The stats cited sure don't excite me. Six of a total 20 hires with between 10-26 years of experience. And that in a district of affluent people.
The poster above this one has it right: money does come first and teachers are very unpopular.
Why isn't the Indianapolis Teachers Association doing something like this?
ReplyDeleteMay 5, 2011
Vigo teachers likely to OK new contract
Howard Greninger
The Tribune-Star The Tribune Star Thu May 05, 2011, 05:02 AM EDT
TERRE HAUTE —
Vigo County teachers were expected to approve a new two-year contract Wednesday with the Vigo County School Corp.
About 894 teachers were eligible to cast a ballot Wednesday, said Mark Lee, president of the Vigo County Teachers Association. The outcome was not available at presstime Wednesday.
Lee said the association sought to pass a new contract that attempts “to keep as much as possible intact from the previous contract.”
A new state law taking effect July 1 allows only a two-year contract and restricts collective bargaining topics. For instance, teacher unions won’t be able to negotiate items such as school calendars, class size, teaching conditions or teacher evaluation procedures.Under the new law, contracts after July 1 can cover only wage and wage-related benefits.
If accepted by teachers, the contract would go before the Vigo County School Board on May 16 for ratification of the contract.
Vigo Superintendent Dan Tanoos said Wednesday he disagrees with restricting collective bargaining rights.
“The state has chosen to take over every other part of public education, it seems, and now they are trying to tell us what we can and can’t give our employees,” Tanoos said.
“I think that is unfortunate because I think we have been very responsible, both from the administrative and school board position and from the teachers association and other employee groups, to keep in mind what is best for the school corporation,” Tanoos said.
He also said Gov. Mitch Daniels and Superintendent of Public Instruction Tony Bennett “choose to punish all school corporations for a few bad contracts around the state. The legislature and governor blame teachers for bad contracts. I think they have forgotten that a superintendent also has to agree to let them have that contract.
“Collective bargaining is two sides sitting down to hammer out an agreement that is best for employees and the school system. We have done that locally in my years as superintendent,” Tanoos said.
After this contract, Tanoos said, “it will have some ramifications for insurance purposes for employees. We are a solvent school system and supposedly we have good benefits for our staff and now they [the state] will tell us what kind of benefits we can provide for our staff,” Tanoos said.
“I don’t think this [new law] should be an open door for superintendents to treat their employees poorly because they can only bargain salary and benefits,” Tanoos said. “I have heard rumors that there will be changes in job descriptions, in hours and days, based upon the fact that collective bargaining is going out the door, but I wouldn’t want to disrespect my employees in that way.”
Tanoos said administrative officials were hoping for a ratification of the contract from teachers.
“We would hope that in two years there will be a governor and a state superintendent and legislators who have a respect for public education,” Tanoos said.
Howard Greninger can be reached at (812) 231-4204 or howard.greninger@tribstar.com.
Cause most schools corporations deep down like the idea that they control/keep the fear with the teachers. They prefer to be able to rif whomever especially when they need to cut budgets.
ReplyDeleteI've heard several school corps are talking about extending the teachers work days by one hour. That allows students to have free tutoring and homebound pay will go bye bye because teachers can be appointed to teach for that extra hour or whatever the school corp. decides. It will save schools thousands of dollars by taking advantage of salaried workers. I can also see school corps requiring teachers to add an additional 2 hr. weekly to their schedules placing them in after schoo detentions and Saturday tutoring classes.
Believe me there is a plan and it isn't going to be good.
I hope Tanoos is right and the next election will oust the state superintendent. Unfortunately many people go to the polls and vote not knowing the issues. Teachers better be heard loud and clear the next election!!!
To the folks who say it's all about the money, to some extent you are right, and yes, choice and vouchers make the schools have to work even harder to get/keep student funding. And it's obvious ariel bender has never taken an economics course. But I assure you, school administrators have. It doesn't save a principal money to hire a bunch of new teachers if there is an experienced one with proven success. The problem is that most experienced teachers don't have proven success. But the ones that do will beat out a new teacher every time. It's not just in Hamilton County. Any school will hire an excellent experienced teacher if they can swing it. It saves them on tutoring and remediation, and from losing that student funding completely if he moves to another school. I realize you're trying to paint a picture of doom and gloom, but it's simply not an accurate picture. Teachers have as much control over their careers and job transfers as any other occupation.
ReplyDelete26-year teacher - Science, 21-year teacher - math, 20-year teacher - English.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you're a good teacher, but you don't teach a high-need area, is it so bad to add Math, Science, or Special Ed to your license if you want to leave the district?
"Teachers have as much control over their careers and job transfers as any other occupation."
ReplyDelete__________________
Are you a teacher with 15 or more years of experience? If so, have you ever PERSONALLY been out applying for a teaching job in another school district?
Speculative theory and reality are often far apart.
It's seriously time to scrap the entire IPS model. With such a dysfunctional district and stigma surrounding its name, there's little to remedy the situation without a total transformation into a much smaller district limited to Center Township students.
ReplyDeleteTransformation means ridding IPS of the dysfunctional stigma that surrounds it. Accomplishing that would mean closing IPS and disbanding the current central office administration; reopen a much smaller township school district and call it Center Township School District.
Center Township is the CENTER SQUARE of Marion County. The boundaries are 38th street to the north, Belmont Avenue on the west, Emerson Avenue on the east and Troy Avenue on the south. If a student's address is outside of Center Township, the student would attend their home township school.
"Speculative theory and reality are often far apart." Couldn't agree more. Do you have any objective data to support your claim that schools are passing up effective, experienced teachers for less expensive, less effective teachers? Otherwise, your personal opinions might be clouding your observation of reality.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the Center Township idea and giving the other township parts back to the townships, but I'd keep the magnet programs. In fact, if it was cost effective, I'd change the magnet programs to charter schools so parents in other districts could enroll without paying tuition.
ReplyDelete@"Speculative theory and reality are often far apart."
ReplyDeleteHow about just closing IPS and opening Center Township School District with the student population coming only from Center Township?
Nah. Too easy, too logical.
ReplyDelete