Here is a tough question that we hope will stir some real thoughtful debate. "Are there some children who, for whatever reason, are just incapable of learning or can every child be saved?"
I think every child is capable of learning, and 95% of them are capable of learning at grade level. But there is a lot that can interfere with that, both inside and outside of the school building.
I gave this question some thougnt. Incapable? Maybe unwilling. An example: I have six 9th graders who hate my class because it is small and they can't hide the way they do in other classes. They do not read on grade level because their instructional reading levels are from 3rd--5th grade. Since the start of school, I have done everythong possible and one, is still totally lost. She is angry because they pulled her out of a music class to put her in reading. She tells me every day she is going to get transferred out of my class. I listen and smile. By the way, this student is 17 years old and she just will not try. I talked to her SPED teacher who said her story is the same in every class. I really feel like Annie Sullivan with Helen Keller--how can I reach her? Ther is just no intrinsic motivation there.
Yes, we have many profound students that lack the cognitive abilities to function at grade level. I had a 52 Full Scale IQ that would never function at the 11th grade level, no matter how I presented the material of Algebra 1/1. I was happy to see that the student was able to balance a checkbook and keep a savings account current. But since he never passed Algebra, I am branded a "failing teacher".
Maybe we are trying to fit square pegs into round holes assuming every child must learn the same thing. Some children aren't going to go to college - so why do we teach them as if they were? Maybe we should be implementing a more vocationally oriented education system at a lower grade level.
All children can learn....they learn at different paces and different levels. With some students, recognizing survival words might be an amazing feat while others may be studying to be future Nobel Prize winners.....too often we assume that everyone is going to college.
The question posed is indeed a hard question. At present, the question rarely arises in educational conversations until the students reach high school and begin earning credits toward a diploma. Evidently modifying (i.e., changing the content and intent) the curriculum is done frequently in the lower and middle grades when students are not earning credits; however, it is not possible to modify/change the curriculum at the high school level and maintain the integrity and the fidelity of the high school diploma.
Yes, there are far too many high school students with IQ's below 80 that are expected to pass the State End of Course Assessment in Algebra I, Biology, and English 10. Compounding this fact is the Core 40 Diploma, which IPS wants ALL students to receive. The Core 40 Diploma has students with IQ's in the 50's and 60's enrolled in Algebra II classes. Mind you, there are self-contained spec ed Algebra II classes, but the Algebra II curriculum cannot be modified even in these classes; only accommodations can be given (i.e., extended time to complete work, testing individually, etc.). Somewhere there must be some sanity, but until IPS begins openly acknowledging the existence of the Basic/General High School Diploma which does not require Algebra II, these mildly mentally handicapped students will drop out.
I think what the NCLB is telling us is that if we had accomodations we could all be Einstein and Hawking. Darn, if they'd only let me spend a few more decades on the SAT. All people can learn, but not all people can learn the same thing. We need to recognize the abilities in every student and enhance those abilities. We also need to stop perpetuating the myth that a person is useless if they don't have a college diploma. Society should value a job well done, no matter what the job. A good honest mechanic is as valuable as a good honest hedge fund manager. Or is the latter an oxymoron?
A school should be measured on how many productive citizens they help to shape, not on how many kids pass a test.
I remember--way back in the covered wagon days of IPS--that Wood High School was the vocational school to teach students who were not college-bound a trade. Why couldn't we go back to that?
Someone is telling these parents when their babies are born that all babies start out the same and can become doctors, lawyers, etc. And these parents believe it. Yes all children can learn, but not at the same accomplishment level. I agree bring something different than academics to these children. Students with lower IQ can learn to be successful and responsible citizen.
You need to tell that to Jane Kendrick who spends most of her time every time bashing teachers for not having every child perform at college level. Kendrick is so out of touch with what is going on in IPS classrooms that it is pathetic. Kendrick needs to spend some time at Tech and get that school in order before something serious and tragic happens.
IPS hires a large number of people for necessary jobs that do NOT require a college degree. These folks jobs must be extrememly important or else, IPS would not hire so many classified personnel.
Who are you to judge the classified personnel in whole? FYI- I indeed have a degree. I choose to work for IPS - on purpose, even. I choose to give back to the district and comunity that molded me into the person I am today.
I don't believe I've meant any IPS students who are incapable of learning, but I've meant some who are incapable of ever earning enough credits to graduate from high school with a Core 40 Diploma. They simply lack the cognitive abilities to ever grasp Physics, Chemistry, or Algebra II. These kids will drop out of school because they're not steered toward a General Diploma which is indeed a real high school diploma, just not one geared for students who will attend college.
Has anyone else noticed that Jane Kendrick likes to show up in the schools when big shots and tv cameras are there but never when students are there. I wonder if she is afraid or intimidated by IPS high school students.
I don't think Jane Kendrick is afraid of anything except for our failure to reach and teach kids. I don't see how one could think she hinders achievement of our kids. Were we really achieving that much before she came?
NO! Every child is capable of learning. It is just a matter of what makes that individual learn.
As a high school teachers who sees well over 180 kids. That is the problem. We, with our idiotic pacing guides for bench mark testing that is more trivia that real understand, do not have time to find each individuals differing style. It is unfortunetly more the student has to learn to adapt because the classes are to large. I remember when it was hard enough seeing 120 (that was the contract number allowed) and knowing each student.
Teachers have a hard time each week to meet the 45 IEP's for the spec ed students that are given each week. In some cases every two weeks.
No, kids can learn. The adults have to have managable rosters and be able to teach at the students pace (another words trust: the educator with a degree, it worked for years on end long before benchmark testing and pacing guides) and every student can/will learn. Probably better.
I'm a parent, not a teacher, and I do sympathize with how the changes in testing and pacing guides must be frustrating for veteran teachers. But I disagree that the old way "worked for years on end." It didn't work at all. Since 2000, thousands of IPS kids have flocked to charter schools and the Educational Choice Trust started giving out more grants for private schools to low-income families, and IPS is STILL scoring over 50% higher on Math and Reading tests than they did before NCLB. http://mustang.doe.state.in.us/SEARCH/snapcorp.cfm?corp=5385 The achievement gap between white and minority studies has narrowed for the first time in the history of public education. Now all the rest, IEPs and class sizes, etc., I'm sure you're right. But there's no way we can ever go back to the days of just trusting the school and teachers.
Obviously you have not seen Jane Kendrick in action. Visit Tech where she had some responsiblity and see what is happening there this year. You cannot teach students who are not in class and students cannot learn where other students are allowed to disrupt classes day in and day out and nothing happens to them. Jane has responsibility for Tech and does nothing. She prefers lunching with the big shots and hanging around the tv cameras. Better yet, talk to some parents and teachers in Anderson.
To the parent above. IPS has not allowed real teaching since Zendahas (dont' remember spelling, sorry) was superintendent. Since she has was hired it has been the flavor of the month teaching method. Select schools, small schools, inclusion, etc. all superintendents have had pets they have lobbed at educator who must follow.
Teaching the old ways that worked in the 60s, 70s, and 80s worked. Educators have since been lobbed with all kinds of methods to improve scores because they don't make kids use the wrote and rention methods that my parents, I and others have been through. Kids need these for basics before introducing other higher order thinkings.
No, an excellent example is "Dr. White, he has not learned how to treat employees or to take a leadership role (responsibility of a failing system)" after how many years? No matter what happens Dr. White just keeps on playing games with the "Bobble-Heads" and has hurt how many students? Dr. White is a lost cause.
A few comments here have stated there are students in high school that have elementary level reading skills. This begs the question: If they could not read at grade level, why in the world were they allowed to advance to the next grade?
Mean what you say and say what you mean. IPS has always told kids one thing and done another. If you don't do X you won't go on to the next grade, X being attend, do your work, pass the ISTEP, what ever it is. Then the kid gets to high school and fails both math and language arts, and you tell them "Your still a freshman" and they don't believe you. They get to their supposed "Junior or Senior" year and are still freshmen, and either they drop out or we put them in "credit recoverery", or some other catch up program, and they either graduate or drop out. Every single time you tell a kid one thing and another thing happens you undermine your own crediability.
I think that every child is capable of learning, but education used to be a place to learn what you wanted to learn. Ever since education became no college left behind, students are not being listened to. What is wrong with a trade school anyway? What is wrong with being an apprentice somewhere after their sophmore year; isn't that better than dropping out and doing nothing after their freshman year?
I think every child is capable of learning, and 95% of them are capable of learning at grade level. But there is a lot that can interfere with that, both inside and outside of the school building.
ReplyDeleteI gave this question some thougnt. Incapable? Maybe unwilling. An example: I have six 9th graders who hate my class because it is small and they can't hide the way they do in other classes. They do not read on grade level because their instructional reading levels are from 3rd--5th grade. Since the start of school, I have done everythong possible and one, is still totally lost. She is angry because they pulled her out of a music class to put her in reading. She tells me every day she is going to get transferred out of my class. I listen and smile. By the way, this student is 17 years old and she just will not try. I talked to her SPED teacher who said her story is the same in every class. I really feel like Annie Sullivan with Helen Keller--how can I reach her? Ther is just no intrinsic motivation there.
ReplyDeleteYes, we have many profound students that lack the cognitive abilities to function at grade level. I had a 52 Full Scale IQ that would never function at the 11th grade level, no matter how I presented the material of Algebra 1/1. I was happy to see that the student was able to balance a checkbook and keep a savings account current. But since he never passed Algebra, I am branded a "failing teacher".
ReplyDeleteMaybe we are trying to fit square pegs into round holes assuming every child must learn the same thing. Some children aren't going to go to college - so why do we teach them as if they were? Maybe we should be implementing a more vocationally oriented education system at a lower grade level.
ReplyDeleteAll children can learn....they learn at different paces and different levels. With some students, recognizing survival words might be an amazing feat while others may be studying to be future Nobel Prize winners.....too often we assume that everyone is going to college.
ReplyDeleteThe question posed is indeed a hard question. At present, the question rarely arises in educational conversations until the students reach high school and begin earning credits toward a diploma. Evidently modifying (i.e., changing the content and intent) the curriculum is done frequently in the lower and middle grades when students are not earning credits; however, it is not possible to modify/change the curriculum at the high school level and maintain the integrity and the fidelity of the high school diploma.
ReplyDeleteYes, there are far too many high school students with IQ's below 80 that are expected to pass the State End of Course Assessment in Algebra I, Biology, and English 10. Compounding this fact is the Core 40 Diploma, which IPS wants ALL students to receive. The Core 40 Diploma has students with IQ's in the 50's and 60's enrolled in Algebra II classes. Mind you, there are self-contained spec ed Algebra II classes, but the Algebra II curriculum cannot be modified even in these classes; only accommodations can be given (i.e., extended time to complete work, testing individually, etc.). Somewhere there must be some sanity, but until IPS begins openly acknowledging the existence of the Basic/General High School Diploma which does not require Algebra II, these mildly mentally handicapped students will drop out.
I think what the NCLB is telling us is that if we had accomodations we could all be Einstein and Hawking. Darn, if they'd only let me spend a few more decades on the SAT. All people can learn, but not all people can learn the same thing. We need to recognize the abilities in every student and enhance those abilities. We also need to stop perpetuating the myth that a person is useless if they don't have a college diploma. Society should value a job well done, no matter what the job. A good honest mechanic is as valuable as a good honest hedge fund manager. Or is the latter an oxymoron?
ReplyDeleteA school should be measured on how many productive citizens they help to shape, not on how many kids pass a test.
Yes. No.
ReplyDeleteI remember--way back in the covered wagon days of IPS--that Wood High School was the vocational school to teach students who were not college-bound a trade. Why couldn't we go back to that?
ReplyDeleteSomeone is telling these parents when their babies are born that all babies start out the same and can become doctors, lawyers, etc. And these parents believe it. Yes all children can learn, but not at the same accomplishment level. I agree bring something different than academics to these children. Students with lower IQ can learn to be successful and responsible citizen.
ReplyDeleteYou can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
ReplyDeleteYou need to tell that to Jane Kendrick who spends most of her time every time bashing teachers for not having every child perform at college level. Kendrick is so out of touch with what is going on in IPS classrooms that it is pathetic. Kendrick needs to spend some time at Tech and get that school in order before something serious and tragic happens.
ReplyDeleteIPS hires a large number of people for necessary jobs that do NOT require a college degree. These folks jobs must be extrememly important or else, IPS would not hire so many classified personnel.
ReplyDeletemaybe it is "you can lead a horse to drink but you can't make him water..."
ReplyDeleteWho are you to judge the classified personnel in whole? FYI- I indeed have a degree. I choose to work for IPS - on purpose, even. I choose to give back to the district and comunity that molded me into the person I am today.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe I've meant any IPS students who are incapable of learning, but I've meant some who are incapable of ever earning enough credits to graduate from high school with a Core 40 Diploma. They simply lack the cognitive abilities to ever grasp Physics, Chemistry, or Algebra II. These kids will drop out of school because they're not steered toward a General Diploma which is indeed a real high school diploma, just not one geared for students who will attend college.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it is "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think."
ReplyDeleteHas anyone else noticed that Jane Kendrick likes to show up in the schools when big shots and tv cameras are there but never when students are there. I wonder if she is afraid or intimidated by IPS high school students.
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly does Jane Kendrick have to do with the topic presented?
ReplyDeleteShe hinders achievement by our students. Isn't that what this topic is discussing??
ReplyDeleteI don't think Jane Kendrick is afraid of anything except for our failure to reach and teach kids. I don't see how one could think she hinders achievement of our kids. Were we really achieving that much before she came?
ReplyDeleteNO! Every child is capable of learning. It is just a matter of what makes that individual learn.
ReplyDeleteAs a high school teachers who sees well over 180 kids. That is the problem. We, with our idiotic pacing guides for bench mark testing that is more trivia that real understand, do not have time to find each individuals differing style. It is unfortunetly more the student has to learn to adapt because the classes are to large. I remember when it was hard enough seeing 120 (that was the contract number allowed) and knowing each student.
Teachers have a hard time each week to meet the 45 IEP's for the spec ed students that are given each week. In some cases every two weeks.
No, kids can learn. The adults have to have managable rosters and be able to teach at the students pace (another words trust: the educator with a degree, it worked for years on end long before benchmark testing and pacing guides) and every student can/will learn. Probably better.
I'm a parent, not a teacher, and I do sympathize with how the changes in testing and pacing guides must be frustrating for veteran teachers. But I disagree that the old way "worked for years on end." It didn't work at all. Since 2000, thousands of IPS kids have flocked to charter schools and the Educational Choice Trust started giving out more grants for private schools to low-income families, and IPS is STILL scoring over 50% higher on Math and Reading tests than they did before NCLB. http://mustang.doe.state.in.us/SEARCH/snapcorp.cfm?corp=5385 The achievement gap between white and minority studies has narrowed for the first time in the history of public education. Now all the rest, IEPs and class sizes, etc., I'm sure you're right. But there's no way we can ever go back to the days of just trusting the school and teachers.
ReplyDeleteObviously you have not seen Jane Kendrick in action. Visit Tech where she had some responsiblity and see what is happening there this year. You cannot teach students who are not in class and students cannot learn where other students are allowed to disrupt classes day in and day out and nothing happens to them. Jane has responsibility for Tech and does nothing. She prefers lunching with the big shots and hanging around the tv cameras. Better yet, talk to some parents and teachers in Anderson.
ReplyDeleteIs there any dirt on Jane Kendrick in Anderson that could be discussed openly on here?
ReplyDeleteTo the parent above. IPS has not allowed real teaching since Zendahas (dont' remember spelling, sorry) was superintendent. Since she has was hired it has been the flavor of the month teaching method. Select schools, small schools, inclusion, etc. all superintendents have had pets they have lobbed at educator who must follow.
ReplyDeleteTeaching the old ways that worked in the 60s, 70s, and 80s worked. Educators have since been lobbed with all kinds of methods to improve scores because they don't make kids use the wrote and rention methods that my parents, I and others have been through. Kids need these for basics before introducing other higher order thinkings.
No, an excellent example is "Dr. White, he has not learned how to treat employees or to take a leadership role (responsibility of a failing system)" after how many years? No matter what happens Dr. White just keeps on playing games with the "Bobble-Heads" and has hurt how many students? Dr. White is a lost cause.
ReplyDeleteA few comments here have stated there are students in high school that have elementary level reading skills. This begs the question: If they could not read at grade level, why in the world were they allowed to advance to the next grade?
ReplyDeleteMean what you say and say what you mean. IPS has always told kids one thing and done another. If you don't do X you won't go on to the next grade, X being attend, do your work, pass the ISTEP, what ever it is. Then the kid gets to high school and fails both math and language arts, and you tell them "Your still a freshman" and they don't believe you. They get to their supposed "Junior or Senior" year and are still freshmen, and either they drop out or we put them in "credit recoverery", or some other catch up program, and they either graduate or drop out. Every single time you tell a kid one thing and another thing happens you undermine your own crediability.
ReplyDeleteI think that every child is capable of learning, but education used to be a place to learn what you wanted to learn. Ever since education became no college left behind, students are not being listened to. What is wrong with a trade school anyway? What is wrong with being an apprentice somewhere after their sophmore year; isn't that better than dropping out and doing nothing after their freshman year?
ReplyDelete