Much, much better. I know that between the reform movement and the economy, that it's been tough for many teachers. And change is scary. But I very much believe in the reform movement and think it will significantly improve education.
As far as how IPS as a district will fare? On one hand, I think the magnet programs are successful and will likely continue to be successful. But unless things change much more drastically and rapidly, the future doesn't look good for the rest of IPS.
Reform is wonderful, when properly researched, planned, implemented and monitored, and modified.
How can Tony Bennett ensure that each and every administrator will fairly evaluate educators? There are so many opportunities for abuse. Insubordination can be defined just as easily and creatively as "failure to comply" in our six-step discipline process. The lack of due process in our new assessment documents is oh, so scary.
The real question is who will monitor the monitors. Much like there are good and bad teachers, there are good and bad administrators. I keep reading about the great new ways that we will ensure that teachers are held accountable but who is holding the superintendent and his minions in check. When Superintendents make huge salaries, get sweet benefis that pay for all sorts of things and golden retirement parachutes to boot(wayne Township), and then lay off teachers and cut programs all things that affect students directly something is not adding up in my book. Yet where is the outrage over the wasting of money by these people? I am all for reform but it should start at the top. IPS is what it is due to terrible leadership schoolboard included.
ouch-- I’m committed to working with public education,” says Senator Yoder, who co-sponsored the voucher bill. “But I will say that time after time we’ve seen that putting more and more money into public education is certainly not the answer. We’ve seen that in IPS (Indianapolis Public Schools), we’ve seen that in Gary and some other schools where they get outrageous amounts of money for their kids, and nothing to show for it.”
Senator Yoder isn't the one exploiting inner city kids for money. That's what the Gary and IPS and all their corporate and political partners have been doing for years. Yes, some would say it's its rooted in racism, but don't think it's rooted in hate. I think it's likely simply greed with the kids just being the collateral damage.
The agenda is greed, greed and more greed. Certainly not for the benefit of the students. If the state gives a student 3500 to go towards a private school and the state if they usually give the school corp. (approx. amounts and they vary with each school) 8000...well do the math. The state saves money in the name of "better" education for OUR students
But its 100% on a volunteer basis. Nobody is being forced into private schools or charter schools. That's infinitely better than overcharging taxpayers to force kids into crummy schools where they are statistically more likely to die than get a college degree.
Then why didn't Senator Yoder include Superintendent Tony Bennett's failing school system as an example. Oh, that is right. It is not a majority minority school.
Add this to the growing list of "you gotta do this to be a teacher: Published: April 23, 2011 3:00 a.m. Editorials The toll on teachers To the crush of restrictions, requirements and new procedures pushed on Indiana teachers during this legislative session, add more: Training in suicide prevention, CPR, defibrillator use, Heimlich maneuver and “removing a foreign body causing an obstruction in an airway.”
The requirements are included in two bills approved by both the Indiana House and Senate. Amendments made to the bills require the Senate authors to concur with changes or send them to conference committee. But the pace of the current session and the Republican majority’s push to overhaul education suggests they will be approved.
Senate Bill 4 would make suicide prevention training a requirement for any teacher to receive a license beginning July 1, 2013. It places responsibility on college and university teacher-training programs. It also gives school districts the option to adjourn school so that current teachers could participate in suicide prevention training. SB 176 requires training in CPR and other life-saving procedures for newly licensed teachers effective July 1, 2012, and for any teacher seeking license renewal.
The proposed bills also affect teachers’ pocketbooks. School districts and teachers’ colleges would incur any costs for suicide-prevention training, but those renewing their licenses would have to cover the life-saving courses. The courses cost about $55.
New teachers face plenty of expenses.
In addition to the life-saving course already required for first-time license applicants, there is a $50 registration fee for the required Praxis tests.
The Praxis I test in reading, writing and math is $130 for the electronic version; $120 for paper-and-pencil version. Praxis II costs $120 for elementary school teachers, while subject-matter tests for middle- and high school teachers cost $80-$95 per subject, so a teacher seeking certification in several areas could easily spend $320.
Add in the cost of drug screening and a criminal background check, plus the licensing fees of $35, and first-year teachers are looking at a substantial investment before they’ve taught a single class, above and beyond the cost of a degree program.
It’s a substantial investment to join a profession that has been thoroughly pilloried in the current session. Forgive current teachers for feeling overwhelmed by the growing demands; look for prospective teachers to rethink career plans
It's not a conspiracy. There are plenty of Indiana school districts who aren't doing well, and several schools with white majorities are in danger of being taken over in the near future. Districts like Gary and IPS are in a whole other category for two reasons. 1) Almost all of the secondary ed schools are failing, not just one or two problem schools. 2) A very high percentage of students who do well in grade school, only to fail or drop out later. 3)Many top students are still behind and require remediation in college. These issues are not common, even among urban districts, and point to major systemic issues.
I find it interesting that they describe her experiences "in the harshest public school system in America" I didn't think IPS was THAT bad. I have a friend who used to teach in LA. Her stories are way worse than mine. Administrative incompetence is about the same but I haven't ever had to have a "drive by drill"
@ I find it interesting Then you have never worked at Arlington. I have taken knives off students to have them suspended for a day.
The new legislature is scary for all teachers. We are now getting punished for taking sick days that our contracts have given us and if your not your principals friend you can be fired very easily. So as a teacher, instead of focusing on how to engage my students I'm going to be trying to spread myself thin to kiss my principals ass.
@We are now getting punished for taking sick days that our contracts have given us
Here's a perfect example of an uninformed educator. IEA not only worked with HR to correct this misconception, but enabled several dozen educators to retain their positions.
The new law defining evaluation and collective bargaining exists because of voter ignorance and apathy. "Your Man Mitch", and his boy Tony Bennett are blazing their path to national political roles using Indiana educators as fodder.
I pray for our children's future. Our best and brightest hope WAS tomorrow's educators. How smart does one have to be to sign up for this abuse?
Can you only imagine Mitch as Prez and Bennett running the national education system. Yes, teachers are in trouble until both of them are voted OUT of office. The two of them have been on their own political agenda for personal gains at the expense of students and teachers and there is little that anyone can do except to wait it out and vote.
I wonder if charter school teachers are included in all of these new requirements. They are exempt from so many regulations. Also I wonder if the Teach For American two year wonders have to comply also.
The education requirement is the same (bachelor's degree). But yes, the recent provision allows for charter schools to hire people with bachelor's degrees in their subjects but who are not licensed teachers. (Which is how it works in college, so this isn't some new idea.) What exactly do you think is the danger with that?
Just to clarify, I am referring to the fact that college instructors and professors do not have education degrees. They have advanced degrees in their subject matter.
I will tell you that many many college jobs will advertise their positions with a PHd and or Masters AND experience teaching in k-12. Therefore, most of those college profs/instructors do have teachers licenses or have had at one time.
The difference is most Charter teachers are not doctors in that given subject. They haven't had years of education/research in that area of teaching
I'm tired of the finger-pointing and the blame game. "It's the teachers' fault." "It's the students' fault." "It's the government's fault." "It's the parents' fault."
Okay, seriously. An IPS teacher is insinuating that a typical IPS teacher is better, more effective, more professional, more knowledgeale, etc. than an unlicensed teacher with a professional degree in his/her subject?! Really?! With a straight face you're saying that? Are you high?!
Don't forget, the bozos from central office are all licensed too. Do you think that makes them more professional and more knowledgeable than you?
Just because you have a degree in say, biology, does make you a biology teacher. College professors just stand in front of students, recite facts and hope some of them get it.
Biology teachers actually TEACH the students, find ways to reach each child and make sure they get it.
I agree that having a biology degree doesn't mean you can teach biology. But neither does having a biology education degree. Most teachers learn teaching from teaching, not from their education classes.
Should we mention that teaching college students may be a tiny bit different from teaching urban students who come from poverty? Before you jump down my throat-I know there are some urban poor who go on to college and are very successful. There are not many of them. If there were we wouldn't be having this discussion. Just saying that there are more challenges in teaching biology to freshmen at Arlington than teaching biology at Earlham.
I don't disagree with that. But how much do you think your education courses will prepare you for teaching at Arlington? I cannot think of a single way having an education degree has helped me in being a good teacher. Can you?
Do I think IPS teachers are better? Heck yes--there is no teaching job harder than IPS/Ft. Wayne/Gary etc. Are they better than the joe off the street coming in with a bachelors in biology and NO teaching experience while in college or after..you betcha and you are high for thinking anything different. There is nothing like educational preparation and experience
I am laughing inside of the DOE taking over Arlington, John Marshall, and Northwest with the charter school teachers. It took me five years of teaching in some of the worst schools to be able to handle any student now. Just knowing subject matter is part of the teaching process, knowing how to teach to each student takes experience.
You're right. Experience is valuable. I've been on a plane lotsa times, think I'll open my own charter airline.
I've been to the doctor bunches and I grew up in a doctor's house, I bet with that experience I can open my own office. I'm sure the pharmacy will take my precriptions.
Just because I am KNOWLEDGEABLE about things doesn't make me a professional.
@I am laughing.....you are so correct!! Many of the new teachers or the two year wonder TFA teachers are probably more educated on content matter than many of the veterans BUT they lack the understanding of students and the ability to teach those who may be reluctant or unwillingly to cooperate. Many of the new ones struggle with classroom management and setting boundaries for the students. In an ideal situation, they would be working with veteran teachers who could share ideas and techniques to improve as it is a skill learned in the classroom and with experience and not in the classroom. Too many of the politicans [ Bennett and Mitch] see experience as a negative. They are looking at dollar signs and not at effective teaching.
There are veteran teachers at charter schools. Just not as many. But I think the argument started with the post that said you're not a "real" teacher unless you have an education degree, referring to the new law. Experience is what makes a great teacher. And you can get that experience at a traditional school or a charter school, with or without an education degree. College education courses are pretty worthless.
I wonder if a teaching "degree" is so unvaluable (as some are saying here and evidently Bennett agrees) then why do teachers with educational degrees have to renew their licenses and take classes for renewal? What are the non-teacher licensed instructors having to do?
The law that allows charter schools to hire teachers without licenses is only a few weeks old, so whether it will be used for the purpose it was designed remains to be seen. But the purpose was so that charter schools could recruit professionals changing careers, particularly in math and science. They're not allowed to make up more than 50% of the staff, and there's nothing in the law about continuing education requirements. To me, the more school choice there is, the less I'm concerned with regulations from IDOE. If schools hire unprepared teachers, and there are better choices available, people will stop sending their kids there.
The problem with the college courses is exactly the same as the problem with k-12 education. The students don't take ownership of their education. It becomes about grades and and cramming and getting by and not about actually learning the material. You can force teachers to take courses in the history of public education in the U.S. or in diversity or in assessing learning but unless the teacher actually wants to understand these topics, the courses are a waste of time. The same thing applies to the continuing education courses. The problem isn't the courses, it's the students, even if those students are old enough to be grandparents.
You cannot learn to be a real teacher at a Charter school because it is not a real situation. Charter Schools cherry pick their students and remove any struggling students so they have an atypical laboratory work situation. They would become real teachers when they are thrown in the mix and expected to teach everyone and not have the attitude that struggling students are throw away children or instill an artificial attitude of elitism in the students.
With the topics chosen on this site and the beginning statements, it seems to slant towards the right and against downtown IPS. I find that strange when all teachers I talk to can't stand EITHER side. This "reform" is a joke. It doesn't make students or the homes any more accountable and maybe even less. Now ALL focus is on the teacher. This profession is very subjective as far as which teacher is effective and which one isn't. Even the students will disagree over which teachers they perform for. Worse, they'll pick the teacher that gives out the most treats or least homework. Three years from now when nothing changes and experienced teachers are forced into the streets there will be plenty of debate about "reform 2011" in Indiana. Look how crappy things are for teachers in Florida and that's considered a model after this...yikes!
How does giving parents and students more input into their education decrease involvement and accountability? I'm honestly curious how that makes sense to you?
Also the people who come to this blog are people who are interested in education. So they can tell you're making up stuff about charter schools because you don't believe in your own viewpoint enough to argue with facts. It makes you look stupid. Stop it.
I agree the dynamic of this blog has changed, but it's because people kept coming here posting idiotic stuff. It drove off 90% of the normal teachers, and it drew in people who objected with the idiotic stuff being said about the community and about reform advocates. So what we have left are a couple of people who believe strongly in reform, and a couple of people who are anti-everything (against IPS, but also against everybody who wants to change anything about IPS or traditional public education). There really aren't any IPS advocates here. Which is fine, the blog is IPS B.S. I don't think it was ever intended to be a tribute :)
Want to know how to reform IPS? Cut the crap about teacher requirements, and the union being a cause of poor teachers staying in the system. The answer is so simple, and I've looked at the problem for years and still can't believe it's not implemented.
It's not rocket science. The students will do exactly as they are allowed. It's time for the system, the administration in particular, to grow a set of cojones, and start expulsions quickly on the fools in the classroom.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a troublemaking kid who has 36 referrals in 5 months time, and realize that a fool like that has no place in the regular classroom. That sort of student creates a toxic and corrosive effect on all around them. Boot their butts out the door and save the rest of the students from their interference.
As long as we permit disruptive to students to do as they please with little or no consequences, they will continue to do so because it is a source of amusement to them to se how much havoc they can create.
As soon as other students see that we mean business, they will buckle down and start learning. But in the mean time, as long as we have students repeatedly referred for insubordination, cursing at teachers, refusing to do any work, and so on with nothing more than a few hours in detention or a day or two suspension, then not a damn thing is going to change.
The legislature can pass all the Draconian laws they wish, the Superintendent can bluster all he wants, people like Larry Yarrell can scream over the PA all he wants, but until troublemakers, malcontents, and the fools are removed the school environment and achievement is going to remain in the toilet. When a borderline student sees that the system is serious, then they will get serious.
Of course, if the legislature had any 'nads, they would also tie welfare benefits to student achievement, then parents would get insistent about holding the students feet to the fire to study and get better grades. Oh, wait, this is Indiana? Land of the No-nad legislature that puts partisan politics above all else. Sigh. We're doomed.
Well said! Until parents are forced to become involved at all levels of their child's education, we're fighting an uphill battle. I can not imagine sending my child to school and not supporting him in his academic career. Sad that too many parents need to be FORCED to participate in the lives of their child(ren). Thank you to the many who support schools, teachers, and mostly importantly, their beloved children.
You people are nuts. You're saying we need to be MORE hostile to "these people" so they learn their place. That they don't need more choices, they need to be given no choice except hostility and condescension. That they shouldn't be more involved in their education, they should be more submissive to the ideals of people who have zero respect for them. Yeah, I'm amazed you're not getting more cooperation with your brilliant plan!
My God you now know about Mitch Daniels and Bennett's plan, hostility, condescension, submissive behavior, and loss of respect from the community. You have the GOP Plan to destroy education for the lower middle class and poor.
Exactly. That attitude is what causes the problem in the first place. And what's funny is they teach what works in urban education in those college classes you're so adament about protecting, but you all don't like facts or research. They model what works at those charter schools that you're so hellbent on destroying, but you'd rather bear false witness against them. You like the viewpoint that makes you blameless and powerless. But you want to tie the hands of people who are willing to actually do something. You're guilty of a subtle but powerful type of treason.
All the GOP plan does is open up options. That's all it does. It doesn't keep one kid from attending IPS if they want. It doesn't decrease anyone's pay. But it increases the options to everybody involved: Administrators, teachers, parents, and students. It puts the "public" back in pbulic education.
Eventually our state will be consumed with this: (and cost lots more money) type in "charter schools sued for expulsions" good luck, it is gonna get ugly here
I looked up Charter schools sued for expulsions. The articles I found just prove that Charter School teachers lie. They'll paint a rosy picture but refuse to say where they work. Liars and thieves that's all they are.
You're an idiot! If you Google, "dropout factory" or "parents sue school district" or "teacher accused of molesting student" you'll get a bunch of articles about cases all over the country involving traditional schools. Does that prove that traditional school teachers are liars, cheats and predators?
Of course not "idiot". What I am showing is that the glorification of charter schools is overrated. They are the "same" as public schools. Heck there are even ugly things going on at private schools.
The state/teachers at charters/politicians whomever are glorifying charters/privates as the cure all and that simply isn't the case. All types of schools have good and bad teachers, good and bad students/parents.
You need to follow a long what is being discussed and quit the name calling--very immature but expected
I'm not the person who posted above, but just thought i'd point out that the name calling started with the post calling charter school teachers "liars and thieves."
Quit all the bickering. Enough already! If you really feel best teaching at-risk students, then keep or get a teaching position with IPS. If you don't feel called to teach at-risk students, keep or get a position with another school district.
If you want to teach in a public school, then do it. On the other hand, if you want to teach in a charter school or a private school, then do it. Your IN teaching license does not limit you to only a public school, but rather, it allows you to teach in other school settings/environments. All this silly bickering is useless. Do what you do best and do it wherever you elect.
I agree that the bickering and name-calling is ridiculous (regardless of who started it). I also agree that there are good and bad teachers in charter schools and traditional schools, so the holier-than-thou attitude is annoying from either side. But I also disagree that if you are good at teaching at-risk students, you should teach at IPS. I think it depends. I've taught at IPS and I now teach at a charter school where most of the students who enroll are low-income and academically behind, and I find the charter school much more supportive (for everyone, teachers, students, and parents). I also make more than I would at IPS. On the other hand, teachers with more than 10 years experience make more at IPS. And if you're already working at a school with a supportive environment at IPS, then you certainly shouldn't go looking for greener grass elsewhere. I just thought I'd offer some perspective. I agree people should do what they do best where they elect, but if you're not happy at IPS but like urban education, don't rule out looking into charter schools.
Much, much better. I know that between the reform movement and the economy, that it's been tough for many teachers. And change is scary. But I very much believe in the reform movement and think it will significantly improve education.
ReplyDeleteAs far as how IPS as a district will fare? On one hand, I think the magnet programs are successful and will likely continue to be successful. But unless things change much more drastically and rapidly, the future doesn't look good for the rest of IPS.
Yes, I support Indiana School Reform. Let's see change implemented quickly.
ReplyDeleteReform is wonderful, when properly researched, planned, implemented and monitored, and modified.
ReplyDeleteHow can Tony Bennett ensure that each and every administrator will fairly evaluate educators? There are so many opportunities for abuse. Insubordination can be defined just as easily and creatively as "failure to comply" in our six-step discipline process. The lack of due process in our new assessment documents is oh, so scary.
God bless us, every one.
The real question is who will monitor the monitors. Much like there are good and bad teachers, there are good and bad administrators. I keep reading about the great new ways that we will ensure that teachers are held accountable but who is holding the superintendent and his minions in check. When Superintendents make huge salaries, get sweet benefis that pay for all sorts of things and golden retirement parachutes to boot(wayne Township), and then lay off teachers and cut programs all things that affect students directly something is not adding up in my book. Yet where is the outrage over the wasting of money by these people? I am all for reform but it should start at the top. IPS is what it is due to terrible leadership schoolboard included.
ReplyDeleteouch--
ReplyDeleteI’m committed to working with public education,” says Senator Yoder, who co-sponsored the voucher bill. “But I will say that time after time we’ve seen that putting more and more money into public education is certainly not the answer. We’ve seen that in IPS (Indianapolis Public Schools), we’ve seen that in Gary and some other schools where they get outrageous amounts of money for their kids, and nothing to show for it.”
I guess Sen Yoder thinks that all majority White schools are successful.
ReplyDeleteSenator Yoder isn't the one exploiting inner city kids for money. That's what the Gary and IPS and all their corporate and political partners have been doing for years. Yes, some would say it's its rooted in racism, but don't think it's rooted in hate. I think it's likely simply greed with the kids just being the collateral damage.
ReplyDeleteThe agenda is greed, greed and more greed. Certainly not for the benefit of the students.
ReplyDeleteIf the state gives a student 3500 to go towards a private school and the state if they usually give the school corp. (approx. amounts and they vary with each school) 8000...well do the math. The state saves money in the name of "better" education for OUR students
But its 100% on a volunteer basis. Nobody is being forced into private schools or charter schools. That's infinitely better than overcharging taxpayers to force kids into crummy schools where they are statistically more likely to die than get a college degree.
ReplyDeleteSchool Reform? That's an ironic term when there's such a large percentage of students that really need "Reform School".
ReplyDeleteThen why didn't Senator Yoder include Superintendent Tony Bennett's failing school system as an example. Oh, that is right. It is not a majority minority school.
ReplyDeleteAdd this to the growing list of "you gotta do this to be a teacher:
ReplyDeletePublished: April 23, 2011 3:00 a.m.
Editorials
The toll on teachers
To the crush of restrictions, requirements and new procedures pushed on Indiana teachers during this legislative session, add more: Training in suicide prevention, CPR, defibrillator use, Heimlich maneuver and “removing a foreign body causing an obstruction in an airway.”
The requirements are included in two bills approved by both the Indiana House and Senate. Amendments made to the bills require the Senate authors to concur with changes or send them to conference committee. But the pace of the current session and the Republican majority’s push to overhaul education suggests they will be approved.
Senate Bill 4 would make suicide prevention training a requirement for any teacher to receive a license beginning July 1, 2013. It places responsibility on college and university teacher-training programs. It also gives school districts the option to adjourn school so that current teachers could participate in suicide prevention training. SB 176 requires training in CPR and other life-saving procedures for newly licensed teachers effective July 1, 2012, and for any teacher seeking license renewal.
The proposed bills also affect teachers’ pocketbooks. School districts and teachers’ colleges would incur any costs for suicide-prevention training, but those renewing their licenses would have to cover the life-saving courses. The courses cost about $55.
New teachers face plenty of expenses.
In addition to the life-saving course already required for first-time license applicants, there is a $50 registration fee for the required Praxis tests.
The Praxis I test in reading, writing and math is $130 for the electronic version; $120 for paper-and-pencil version. Praxis II costs $120 for elementary school teachers, while subject-matter tests for middle- and high school teachers cost $80-$95 per subject, so a teacher seeking certification in several areas could easily spend $320.
Add in the cost of drug screening and a criminal background check, plus the licensing fees of $35, and first-year teachers are looking at a substantial investment before they’ve taught a single class, above and beyond the cost of a degree program.
It’s a substantial investment to join a profession that has been thoroughly pilloried in the current session. Forgive current teachers for feeling overwhelmed by the growing demands; look for prospective teachers to rethink career plans
It's not a conspiracy. There are plenty of Indiana school districts who aren't doing well, and several schools with white majorities are in danger of being taken over in the near future. Districts like Gary and IPS are in a whole other category for two reasons. 1) Almost all of the secondary ed schools are failing, not just one or two problem schools. 2) A very high percentage of students who do well in grade school, only to fail or drop out later. 3)Many top students are still behind and require remediation in college. These issues are not common, even among urban districts, and point to major systemic issues.
ReplyDeleteFormer IPS teacher tells all in "Thirteen Years Old in the Fourth Grade." Describes some IPS officials to a T. Look it up on Amazon.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that they describe her experiences "in the harshest public school system in America" I didn't think IPS was THAT bad. I have a friend who used to teach in LA. Her stories are way worse than mine. Administrative incompetence is about the same but I haven't ever had to have a "drive by drill"
ReplyDelete@ I find it interesting
ReplyDeleteThen you have never worked at Arlington. I have taken knives off students to have them suspended for a day.
The new legislature is scary for all teachers. We are now getting punished for taking sick days that our contracts have given us and if your not your principals friend you can be fired very easily. So as a teacher, instead of focusing on how to engage my students I'm going to be trying to spread myself thin to kiss my principals ass.
@We are now getting punished for taking sick days that our contracts have given us
ReplyDeleteHere's a perfect example of an uninformed educator. IEA not only worked with HR to correct this misconception, but enabled several dozen educators to retain their positions.
The new law defining evaluation and collective bargaining exists because of voter ignorance and apathy. "Your Man Mitch", and his boy Tony Bennett are blazing their path to national political roles using Indiana educators as fodder.
I pray for our children's future. Our best and brightest hope WAS tomorrow's educators. How smart does one have to be to sign up for this abuse?
Can you only imagine Mitch as Prez and Bennett running the national education system.
ReplyDeleteYes, teachers are in trouble until both of them are voted OUT of office.
The two of them have been on their own political agenda for personal gains at the expense of students and teachers and there is little that anyone can do except to wait it out and vote.
I wonder if charter school teachers are included in all of these new requirements. They are exempt from so many regulations. Also I wonder if the Teach For American two year wonders have to comply also.
ReplyDeleteLike what? What regulations are they exempt from? (I teach at a charter school, so I know the answer. But I'm betting you don't.)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title20/ar24/ch8.html
ReplyDeleteYou might start with the requirements of the faculty. Public schools have to have REAL teachers.
ReplyDeleteThe education requirement is the same (bachelor's degree). But yes, the recent provision allows for charter schools to hire people with bachelor's degrees in their subjects but who are not licensed teachers. (Which is how it works in college, so this isn't some new idea.) What exactly do you think is the danger with that?
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, I am referring to the fact that college instructors and professors do not have education degrees. They have advanced degrees in their subject matter.
ReplyDeleteI will tell you that many many college jobs will advertise their positions with a PHd and or Masters AND experience teaching in k-12. Therefore, most of those college profs/instructors do have teachers licenses or have had at one time.
ReplyDeleteThe difference is most Charter teachers are not doctors in that given subject. They haven't had years of education/research in that area of teaching
big difference
to "just to clarify"
ReplyDeletePlease don't go there comparing college doctors and profs to Charter school instructors
just toooo way out there
I'm tired of the finger-pointing and the blame game. "It's the teachers' fault." "It's the students' fault." "It's the government's fault." "It's the parents' fault."
ReplyDeleteI want to teach children. Period.
Okay, seriously. An IPS teacher is insinuating that a typical IPS teacher is better, more effective, more professional, more knowledgeale, etc. than an unlicensed teacher with a professional degree in his/her subject?! Really?! With a straight face you're saying that? Are you high?!
ReplyDeleteDon't forget, the bozos from central office are all licensed too. Do you think that makes them more professional and more knowledgeable than you?
Just because you have a degree in say, biology, does make you a biology teacher. College professors just stand in front of students, recite facts and hope some of them get it.
ReplyDeleteBiology teachers actually TEACH the students, find ways to reach each child and make sure they get it.
No comparison.
I agree that having a biology degree doesn't mean you can teach biology. But neither does having a biology education degree. Most teachers learn teaching from teaching, not from their education classes.
ReplyDeleteShould we mention that teaching college students may be a tiny bit different from teaching urban students who come from poverty? Before you jump down my throat-I know there are some urban poor who go on to college and are very successful. There are not many of them. If there were we wouldn't be having this discussion. Just saying that there are more challenges in teaching biology to freshmen at Arlington than teaching biology at Earlham.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree with that. But how much do you think your education courses will prepare you for teaching at Arlington? I cannot think of a single way having an education degree has helped me in being a good teacher. Can you?
ReplyDeleteDo I think IPS teachers are better?
ReplyDeleteHeck yes--there is no teaching job harder than IPS/Ft. Wayne/Gary etc.
Are they better than the joe off the street coming in with a bachelors in biology and NO teaching experience while in college or after..you betcha
and you are high for thinking anything different.
There is nothing like educational preparation and experience
"knowledgeale"?
ReplyDeleteFAIL!
We can reread, edit, revise, and spellcheck, all while grading your child's papers.
I am laughing inside of the DOE taking over Arlington, John Marshall, and Northwest with the charter school teachers. It took me five years of teaching in some of the worst schools to be able to handle any student now. Just knowing subject matter is part of the teaching process, knowing how to teach to each student takes experience.
ReplyDeleteAMEN!!!
ReplyDeleteYou changed the argument. Experience is valuable. An education degree is not.
ReplyDeleteYou're right. Experience is valuable. I've been on a plane lotsa times, think I'll open my own charter airline.
ReplyDeleteI've been to the doctor bunches and I grew up in a doctor's house, I bet with that experience I can open my own office. I'm sure the pharmacy will take my precriptions.
Just because I am KNOWLEDGEABLE about things doesn't make me a professional.
@I am laughing.....you are so correct!! Many of the new teachers or the two year wonder TFA teachers are probably more educated on content matter than many of the veterans BUT they lack the understanding of students and the ability to teach those who may be reluctant or unwillingly to cooperate. Many of the new ones struggle with classroom management and setting boundaries for the students. In an ideal situation, they would be working with veteran teachers who could share ideas and techniques to improve as it is a skill learned in the classroom and with experience and not in the classroom. Too many of the politicans [ Bennett and Mitch] see experience as a negative. They are looking at dollar signs and not at effective teaching.
ReplyDeleteThere are veteran teachers at charter schools. Just not as many. But I think the argument started with the post that said you're not a "real" teacher unless you have an education degree, referring to the new law. Experience is what makes a great teacher. And you can get that experience at a traditional school or a charter school, with or without an education degree. College education courses are pretty worthless.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if a teaching "degree" is so unvaluable (as some are saying here and evidently Bennett agrees) then why do teachers with educational degrees have to renew their licenses and take classes for renewal?
ReplyDeleteWhat are the non-teacher licensed instructors having to do?
We drink, party, and populate the Broad Ripple bars on Friday and Saturday nights.
ReplyDeleteHappy (HIC!) Easter
The law that allows charter schools to hire teachers without licenses is only a few weeks old, so whether it will be used for the purpose it was designed remains to be seen. But the purpose was so that charter schools could recruit professionals changing careers, particularly in math and science. They're not allowed to make up more than 50% of the staff, and there's nothing in the law about continuing education requirements. To me, the more school choice there is, the less I'm concerned with regulations from IDOE. If schools hire unprepared teachers, and there are better choices available, people will stop sending their kids there.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the college courses is exactly the same as the problem with k-12 education. The students don't take ownership of their education. It becomes about grades and and cramming and getting by and not about actually learning the material. You can force teachers to take courses in the history of public education in the U.S. or in diversity or in assessing learning but unless the teacher actually wants to understand these topics, the courses are a waste of time. The same thing applies to the continuing education courses. The problem isn't the courses, it's the students, even if those students are old enough to be grandparents.
ReplyDeleteYou cannot learn to be a real teacher at a Charter school because it is not a real situation. Charter Schools cherry pick their students and remove any struggling students so they have an atypical laboratory work situation. They would become real teachers when they are thrown in the mix and expected to teach everyone and not have the attitude that struggling students are throw away children or instill an artificial attitude of elitism in the students.
ReplyDeleteWith the topics chosen on this site and the beginning statements, it seems to slant towards the right and against downtown IPS. I find that strange when all teachers I talk to can't stand EITHER side. This "reform" is a joke. It doesn't make students or the homes any more accountable and maybe even less. Now ALL focus is on the teacher. This profession is very subjective as far as which teacher is effective and which one isn't. Even the students will disagree over which teachers they perform for. Worse, they'll pick the teacher that gives out the most treats or least homework. Three years from now when nothing changes and experienced teachers are forced into the streets there will be plenty of debate about "reform 2011" in Indiana. Look how crappy things are for teachers in Florida and that's considered a model after this...yikes!
ReplyDeleteHow does giving parents and students more input into their education decrease involvement and accountability? I'm honestly curious how that makes sense to you?
ReplyDeleteAlso the people who come to this blog are people who are interested in education. So they can tell you're making up stuff about charter schools because you don't believe in your own viewpoint enough to argue with facts. It makes you look stupid. Stop it.
I agree the dynamic of this blog has changed, but it's because people kept coming here posting idiotic stuff. It drove off 90% of the normal teachers, and it drew in people who objected with the idiotic stuff being said about the community and about reform advocates. So what we have left are a couple of people who believe strongly in reform, and a couple of people who are anti-everything (against IPS, but also against everybody who wants to change anything about IPS or traditional public education). There really aren't any IPS advocates here. Which is fine, the blog is IPS B.S. I don't think it was ever intended to be a tribute :)
ReplyDeleteWant to know how to reform IPS? Cut the crap about teacher requirements, and the union being a cause of poor teachers staying in the system. The answer is so simple, and I've looked at the problem for years and still can't believe it's not implemented.
ReplyDeleteIt's not rocket science. The students will do exactly as they are allowed. It's time for the system, the administration in particular, to grow a set of cojones, and start expulsions quickly on the fools in the classroom.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a troublemaking kid who has 36 referrals in 5 months time, and realize that a fool like that has no place in the regular classroom. That sort of student creates a toxic and corrosive effect on all around them. Boot their butts out the door and save the rest of the students from their interference.
As long as we permit disruptive to students to do as they please with little or no consequences, they will continue to do so because it is a source of amusement to them to se how much havoc they can create.
As soon as other students see that we mean business, they will buckle down and start learning. But in the mean time, as long as we have students repeatedly referred for insubordination, cursing at teachers, refusing to do any work, and so on with nothing more than a few hours in detention or a day or two suspension, then not a damn thing is going to change.
The legislature can pass all the Draconian laws they wish, the Superintendent can bluster all he wants, people like Larry Yarrell can scream over the PA all he wants, but until troublemakers, malcontents, and the fools are removed the school environment and achievement is going to remain in the toilet. When a borderline student sees that the system is serious, then they will get serious.
Of course, if the legislature had any 'nads, they would also tie welfare benefits to student achievement, then parents would get insistent about holding the students feet to the fire to study and get better grades. Oh, wait, this is Indiana? Land of the No-nad legislature that puts partisan politics above all else. Sigh. We're doomed.
So True, So True!
ReplyDeleteWell said! Until parents are forced to become involved at all levels of their child's education, we're fighting an uphill battle. I can not imagine sending my child to school and not supporting him in his academic career. Sad that too many parents need to be FORCED to participate in the lives of their child(ren). Thank you to the many who support schools, teachers, and mostly importantly, their beloved children.
ReplyDeleteYou people are nuts. You're saying we need to be MORE hostile to "these people" so they learn their place. That they don't need more choices, they need to be given no choice except hostility and condescension. That they shouldn't be more involved in their education, they should be more submissive to the ideals of people who have zero respect for them. Yeah, I'm amazed you're not getting more cooperation with your brilliant plan!
ReplyDeleteMy God you now know about Mitch Daniels and Bennett's plan, hostility, condescension, submissive behavior, and loss of respect from the community. You have the GOP Plan to destroy education for the lower middle class and poor.
ReplyDeleteExactly. That attitude is what causes the problem in the first place. And what's funny is they teach what works in urban education in those college classes you're so adament about protecting, but you all don't like facts or research. They model what works at those charter schools that you're so hellbent on destroying, but you'd rather bear false witness against them. You like the viewpoint that makes you blameless and powerless. But you want to tie the hands of people who are willing to actually do something. You're guilty of a subtle but powerful type of treason.
ReplyDeleteAll the GOP plan does is open up options. That's all it does. It doesn't keep one kid from attending IPS if they want. It doesn't decrease anyone's pay. But it increases the options to everybody involved: Administrators, teachers, parents, and students. It puts the "public" back in pbulic education.
ReplyDeleteEventually our state will be consumed with this: (and cost lots more money)
ReplyDeletetype in "charter schools sued for expulsions"
good luck, it is gonna get ugly here
I looked up Charter schools sued for expulsions. The articles I found just prove that Charter School teachers lie. They'll paint a rosy picture but refuse to say where they work. Liars and thieves that's all they are.
ReplyDeleteYou're an idiot! If you Google, "dropout factory" or "parents sue school district" or "teacher accused of molesting student" you'll get a bunch of articles about cases all over the country involving traditional schools. Does that prove that traditional school teachers are liars, cheats and predators?
ReplyDeleteOf course not "idiot".
ReplyDeleteWhat I am showing is that the glorification of charter schools is overrated. They are the "same" as public schools. Heck there are even ugly things going on at private schools.
The state/teachers at charters/politicians whomever are glorifying charters/privates as the cure all and that simply isn't the case.
All types of schools have good and bad teachers, good and bad students/parents.
You need to follow a long what is being discussed and quit the name calling--very immature but expected
I'm not the person who posted above, but just thought i'd point out that the name calling started with the post calling charter school teachers "liars and thieves."
ReplyDeleteQuit all the bickering. Enough already! If you really feel best teaching at-risk students, then keep or get a teaching position with IPS. If you don't feel called to teach at-risk students, keep or get a position with another school district.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to teach in a public school, then do it. On the other hand, if you want to teach in a charter school or a private school, then do it. Your IN teaching license does not limit you to only a public school, but rather, it allows you to teach in other school settings/environments. All this silly bickering is useless. Do what you do best and do it wherever you elect.
I agree that the bickering and name-calling is ridiculous (regardless of who started it). I also agree that there are good and bad teachers in charter schools and traditional schools, so the holier-than-thou attitude is annoying from either side. But I also disagree that if you are good at teaching at-risk students, you should teach at IPS. I think it depends. I've taught at IPS and I now teach at a charter school where most of the students who enroll are low-income and academically behind, and I find the charter school much more supportive (for everyone, teachers, students, and parents). I also make more than I would at IPS. On the other hand, teachers with more than 10 years experience make more at IPS. And if you're already working at a school with a supportive environment at IPS, then you certainly shouldn't go looking for greener grass elsewhere. I just thought I'd offer some perspective. I agree people should do what they do best where they elect, but if you're not happy at IPS but like urban education, don't rule out looking into charter schools.
ReplyDeleteGrow up! Please! You make all of us look bad.
ReplyDelete