Sunday, November 28, 2010
Judgment Day
We had a fun discussion around the dinner table this Thanksgiving. IPS B.S. comes from a family of educators and the big questions were about teacher performance. Would more money make you a better teacher and would you rather be judged by your district's performance, building's performance or classroom performance? The answers were all over the place. What do you think?
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Money wouldn't make me a better teacher because I'm already doing everything I know to do. But it would be nice to get a performance-based raise or bonus.
ReplyDeleteI've thought quite a bit about this issue. I don't have a problem so much with performance pay as I do with how it's determined. Like if its based just on passing or failing ISTEP, then I think it's the worst thing ever. If it's based on value added test scores, I think it's better, but still bad. But if it's based on several factors, I think I could get on board. I think we've talked about it on this board, but maybe not, but I've definitely talked about it with fellow teachers. If you listed the teachers with the highest test gains in one column, the teachers with the fewest discipline problems in another, the ones that parents thought were the best in a third, the ones that principals thought were the best in the fourth, the ones that kids liked the best in the fifth, and ones that other teachers thought were the best in the sixth column, many of the names would be repeated in all six columns. Those are the no brainers. The ones that never show up in any column are also the no brainers. They probably aren't very good. But what about the in between ones. What about the ones who would be in 2 or 3 or 4 of those columns? Some very good teachers don't get good test scores. Some teachers get good test scores but can't get along with anyone -- students, parents, or faculty. Performance measures should0 be broader than test scores.
ReplyDeleteMoney wouldn't help. Performance based raises are treading on dangerous territory. Any veteran teacher knows that there are some years or some classes that just struggle much more. Other years or other classes learn the same material at a much more rapid rate. We all also know the "favored" teacher who seems to always get the motivated students with no behavior problems every semester. We know the strong teacher who is asked or volunteers to take that student that no one else can handle. Why would a teacher do that if that teacher's salary or performance money depended on the outcome.
ReplyDeleteYou have boring Thanksgiving dinners.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather be judged by classroom performance versus school or building performance. I want to be judged on something I have some sort of control over! It's the same reason I never liked group projects when I in school and college! lol
ReplyDeleteI don't think they're necessarily boring. Anyone with several family members who share the same profession will get "shop talk" at family gatherings. I have a family with several people who are in sales in some capacity. We have dinner discussions about the perfect balance of salary and commission. My husband's family has a lot of construction workers. They'll debate for hours on the best way to construct a retaining wall.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the above poster. We have a lot of policemen and lawyers in our family and all the family has to listen to a lot of " shop talkl" at family gatherings.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many Thanksgiving dinner conversations revolved around intelligent and thought provoking topics? I'm glad yours did!
ReplyDeleteHow would this work for SPED teachers? I am not one, but I could see them having a rough time showing gains.
ReplyDeleteWell, they'd show SOME gains, right? Just not as much as standard classes. To me it goes back to how performance is measured. If it's compared to other classrooms with similar students, and test scores are just one part of the overall picture, then I think it could work. I think it should be the same thing with experience. I think experience should be one part of the pay scale, but not the only factor. And I don't think advanced degrees should factor in at all.
ReplyDeleteThose of you who believe the blogmaster or his cronies are educators also probably would've sipped the purple kool-aid in Jonestown.
ReplyDeleteHe has you baited and hooked, lol!
I teach students coming back from expulsions. I really believe that Indiana's Growth Model covers students who are making gains but continue to be low performing, aka, many if my kids. Honestly, I would prefer to be judged on my classroom performance only because as one of the above posters said so well, I hated group projects in college also.
ReplyDeleteI am so tired of all the backbiting, in-fighting, too-many-chiefs-and-not-enough-Indians approach within IPS that I am seriously thinking of leaving the teaching profession all together. I am exhausted in trying to figure out which canned program takes precedence over the others. Does anyone else feel this way? Better yet, does anyone have any suggestions?
But what about Special Area Teachers? We don't have a classroom tied to our name. So no matter how good (or bad) we are we just teach for fun? I don't think so. My mamma told me never to give it away for free!
ReplyDeleteMusic teachers could be evaluated by student performances. Art teachers could be evaluated by student displays of their art work. PE teachers could be evaluated by how many pounds their students lose!
ReplyDeleteWhy does everyone forget that Media Specialists are also special area teachers?
ReplyDeleteClick your heels three times and repeat after me. Tony Bennett and charter schools will cure all of the ills of education in Indiana.
ReplyDelete???
ReplyDeleteIf you don't understand the reference of repeating the phrase and clicking your heels three times, then there is no need to tackle the difficult topic of education.
ReplyDeleteI didn't put the question marks, but in my opinion, the reference itself isn't confusing, but the comment seems out of place in this particular discussion. Perhaps that's what the poster above you was questioning.
ReplyDeleteAn intelligent conversation gets around 20 comments, a rumor-mill conversation easily goes over 60 *sigh*... but, back to the topic.
ReplyDeleteI think performance-based pay is a great idea. I back that it be individually based rather than district/building based. Simple fact is that if it is district/building based, those who are not performing are still being rewarded for the hard work of those who are performing.
As far as a level and fair assessment, that's the tricky part. I haven't really seen anything that seems to fit. I don't think it can be based solely on test scores, solely on student performance, or any other single criteria. I also agree that the assessment process and levels need to be individualized per grade and subject. A fair assessment can't be made when trying to shoe-horn and English teacher to the same scale as a Social Studies teacher. On the same note I don't believe an 8th Grade SS teacher can be fairly evaluated at the same standards as a 10th Grade SS teacher.
The real trick would be getting all to agree on what the criteria would be and would would be assessing. Get that ironed out and I think most would be behind the idea.
Let me pick my students and I will take the money!!!
ReplyDeleteI'm not against performance-based bay, but like others have mentioned, I would like to see how performance will be evaluated first. I actually like the idea mentioned above about considering test gains as well as discipline and evals from students, parents, principals and fellow teachers. I like that it encourages collaboration with the other participants in the system, and not just test scores. Is that an official possibility being considered or was that just brainstorming? Just curious?
ReplyDeleteSo a teacher with "Honors" classes will do well, but a teacher with average or lower performing students will not. Sure, I see the equity in that! Now all a vindictive principal will have to do is schedule the lower performing students into his or her least favorite teacher's classes, and that teacher will be considered a poor and under-performing educator.
ReplyDeleteSounds great. Actually it's already happening at my school. The teachers who are active in the union or who are vocal in any way are given behavior problems and failing students while the quiet and therefore favored teachers are given the Honors students.
Even the playing field, please.
IPS already tried merit pay years ago when student attendance, teacher attendance and Terra Nova scores were combined. The bonus was nice and we had SOME control. Teachers didn't miss a lot and they pushed students not to miss. The goals were realistic too and the money was nice. Our school made it three years in a row and I believe we made around $900 extra each. Teachers were annoyed that special area teachers received it too but what the hey.
ReplyDeleteSpecial area teachers are TEACHERS. That means the same license and contract etc. Get over your jealousy, it's not an easy job.
ReplyDeleteI remember when I joined IPS back in 2004 that on my very first evaluation I received an 'unsatisfactory' in one area (can't recall the exact area now). I inquired why I was considered 'unsatisfactory' in that area, and both my dept. head and my principal told me it was because the school (Arlington High) where I was teaching had earned bad scores on the ISTEP. I remember that I told them I wasn't even working in IPS or at Arlington when those scores were earned, but apparently, it was a 'deal' with the Ed Center or union or something to that sad effect. I'll never forget that moment of realizing I was working in a toxic school district.
ReplyDeleteI bet you won't leave the "toxic" IPS school district as long as you continue to collect a "non-toxic" paycheck every pay period, right?
ReplyDeleteActually, I left IPS on my own accord. I fortunately was not bound to the position for a paycheck - even a non-toxic paycheck.
ReplyDeleteTwo posts back ---- I remember something just like this about our evaluations -- every teacher in the district got an Unsatisfactory because the whole district did not do well on a test --- it did not matter what school you were in --- just that everybody got a low rating because the whole district was not doing well in something --- does any one remember this?
ReplyDeletePlease rest assured that the IEA never agreed on that mandatory Unsatisfactory rating for all in a school. That was an Ed. Center "gotcha" to let the teachers know that we are worthless. Under the current IEA president[wherever she is hiding] it might be possible as she is owned 100% by Eugene White.
ReplyDeleteSo true about our IEA President! How can you leave her a messages,email her and never get a phone call back from her at all? Today makes week #3!! I find it not only disrespectful, but very unprofessional!!!
ReplyDeleteThere is chaos all over the district, even if Ann isn't in Eugene's pocket she certainly is in his sights, I believe they are using a scattergun approach, violate the contract in as many ways possible, swamp the union with complaints, and the people who don't complain, are just an easy shot.
ReplyDeletePeople who are targeted need to talk to their building level rep and follow the chain of command through IEA...don't let it get to the end of the process without talking to an IEA building level rep.
Why are we going to be missing a paycheck in January? The email I got today explains that because we are not working over Christmas Break that we don't get paid for those 2 weeks. However, I have gotten my paycheck in January the last 8 years with no problem. What is going on?!!
ReplyDeleteWe get paid three times in December, and once in January. It is going to be tight that month, especially for spouses in this district.
ReplyDeleteI love how HR flippantly sent the email out...hoping no one would read it and complain.
The paycheck email is not for teachers. Calm down. It's for assistants, bus drivers, etc. Non-certified employees
ReplyDeleteThe email says classified. are teachers classified?
ReplyDeletecertified! do you have a degree?
ReplyDeleteIt says classified 10 month employees. Teachers are 12 month employees. You get paid year round.
ReplyDeleteTeachers are NOT TWELVE MONTH EMPLOYEES...read your contract you are a nine month employee, your salary for the nine months is to be paid in 26 biweekly payments, so every month you are paid twice and two months you receive three checks.
ReplyDeleteOh, shit, here we go again with the "teachers don't get paid for weekends and vacations."
ReplyDeletewell we don't. Lunch either, (just to stir it up). We work 190 7 hour days. (that's where the lunch comes off since we are contracted for 7.5 hours per day) That means we don't get paid for weekends and vacations, we just collect money we already earned. Duh.
ReplyDeleteTeachers are not 12 month employees. The pay we receive over summer break and other vacations is just money we have already earned and they "hold" for us and portion it out throughout the year. How can others not understand that if teachers don't. How can a teacher not know the difference between certified and classified staff. Sometimes I have co workers who amaze me at how unaware they are concerning our jobs and working conditions.
ReplyDelete"Sometimes I have co workers who amaze me at how unaware they are concerning our jobs and working conditions."
ReplyDeleteLord knows, I feel the same way. The stupidity is not only baffling, but stupefying.
The reason this is important has to do with extending the school year, if the public perception is that we are on some type of "paid vacation" for three months of the year and they suddenly lengthen the school year to 200 days instead of 190 days, the public will see it as no one should get three months of paid vacation, so it is merely a cut in the paid vacation. When in reality it will be a pay cut...of about 1.05%. 200 days of work at the same salary as 190 days of work is a PAY CUT. So keep that fact in mind when you say "oh we get paid when we are on vacation."
ReplyDeletePity the poor teachers. Most professionals work 250 days a year for their salaries. Make up your mind--do you want to be treated like professionals? If so, you need to lose the wage earner mentality.
ReplyDeleteYou could have been a teacher....don't blame us for your poor choices.
ReplyDeleteWhat we(well I can only speak for myself)really want is to be treated as the educated professionals we are and not as free babysitters.
Teachers shape the future. When we are constantly torn down it makes for a pretty bleak future.
Teachers can't have it both ways. We can't say we want credit for shaping the future but not the blame for shaping the future. We can't say we want to be treated like professionals and then scream when people want to treat teaching more like a profession and less like a factory. I don't agree with "pity the poor teachers" above, but I absolutely agree that many teachers need to make up their minds.
ReplyDeleteWhen I went to school (which wasn't that long ago) if I received bad grades it was because I didn't do a good job. Today if students make bad grades, its because TEACHERS don't do a good job.
ReplyDeleteAmen to the previous post! It's sickening how when students don't do the work and get the grade they earned ( which is a bad one) and it's the teachers fault! I am a teacher and have seen this and heard of this thousands of times! No, no, no it could not be the lazy student that you have tried multiple times to help and the student just doesn't want to do the work. It's never their fault. Oh well they will get a big dose of how the real world works when they realize not everything is handed to you on a nice pretty silver platter. There are some things you have to earn all on your own in life. Not everybody can do it for you! Just a vent there! Thanks for listening! :)
ReplyDelete"When I went to school (which wasn't that long ago) if I received bad grades it was because I didn't do a good job. Today if students make bad grades, its because TEACHERS don't do a good job."
ReplyDeleteExactly. We have let the corporate media and the politicians shift the blame for their own personal gains. It's not about kids. They know they can't legislate parenting so they go after teachers. We know the unions are a joke and totally powerless.Education is better than it ever was. Kids don't read and neither do their parents. The politicians have told them that they can drop off their kid and pick up a rocket scientists at 3:40 without any effort from the home.The teaching profession in Indiana is going to go back to what it was like during the one-room school house when the politicians controlled everything the teacher did from their social life to meager salaries. Can't wait!
Oh, and it gets better. Tony Bennett and a group of superintendents of public instruction from other states have formed a new group spearheaded by Jeb Bush to advocate for national reform that extends much deeper what we're experiencing now in Indiana. My state senator told me that the Republican party is grooming him to be Secretary of Education.
ReplyDeleteBut see, if you're not responsible for teaching children, then you ARE babysitters. You can't have it both ways. Salespeople are responsible for selling to people. Otherwise, they are simply cashiers.
ReplyDeleteYou can't blame people for not treating teachers as professionals if you don't hold yourself to the same standard that professionals do. If you behave like a factory worker (easily trained and replaced), then you can't blame people for not seeing your worth. It takes no skill at all to teach a child who wants to learn. Any babysitter with a high school education can teach a willing child. The real skill, what taxpayers pay billions and billions of dollars for, is to teach the value of education to those who don't already value it.
Someone once said "don't throw your pearls to the swine, for they will trample them and then devour you." (I won't mention who!) To the above poster, I will translate: when you try to convey something of value to those who either will not or cannot appreciate it, then we (teachers) have something coming for us; and your post, as well as, the current public sentiment is making that fact shockingly clear. The fact that teachers trying to help students are considered the enemy is just the most assinine assumption ever made. Stop being so incredibly stupid. Oh, I'm sorry, it must have been a teacher's fault!! You're off the hook!
ReplyDeleteYeah, you're like Jesus. LOL
ReplyDeleteThe fact that you felt insulted by my post shows your own insecurities. I'm not anti-teacher. I'm just saying your attitude perpetuates the babysitter mentality. You want it both ways. Good luck with that.
Duh, I just gave you the above post, remember!
ReplyDeleteP.S. You have some serious issues, what are you a Psychologist or something with your 'insecurities'! Sounds like you have a lot of experience.
ReplyDeleteHow exactly do teachers behave like factory workers?
ReplyDeleteHow many factory workers take work home with them?
How many factory workers come in early or stay late to help others?
How many factory workers have to get a machine to work that didn't get any sleep because they were hungry?
How many factory workers worry that if they take a day off the machines will riot and destroy their space and steal all their candy?
There is NO comparison with teachers and factory workers. Both serve a role in society and both are needed, but we are not the same.
I'm not saying that teachers are better. I am simply saying that we are different. You might as well compare a brain surgeon to a factory worker.
Look sometimes it is the teacher, when no one it the class "gets it" and the teacher doesn't build rigor,tie in background knowledge and stress the importance of what is being learned for future success it is the teacher. If you taught it and NO ONE learned it, you really didn't teach it.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand it is often the students, how do you teach something sequential to someone who shows up only three or four days a week, who refuses to focus because they have their I-POD running up their shirt around their hair and into their ear, is so involved in Springer type drama that what you are teaching pales in comparison? How do you teach someone who is under such stress learning is impossible, and even if you could build a classroom community where that happened you have some one who doesn't even know one of your student's names breathing down your neck asking why you haven't yet "covered" pages 200 to 210.
I disagree that there is no skill in teaching a willing child. It requires patience and the ability to break down lessons into digestible pieces. Also, especially in disadvantaged districts like IPS, it requires skill to teach willing children when they are a minority in the classroom. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the main problem with IPS is that the "average" is so low. So if you are engaging the classroom and creating a classroom community, the children will not perform at grade level, and the good students will actually be held back. To teach willing children in IPS, one actually has to be a master at differentiated instruction, which I would estimate less than 10% of IPS teachers even attempt.
ReplyDeleteAllow me to explain the difference between a wage earner's mentality and that of a professional.
ReplyDeleteA professional chooses a career; a wage earner gets a job.
A professional expects the tempo of work to change; sometimes more hours are required in a week to get the job done right. A wage earner expects to work a set schedule; one demands overtime and comp time when asked to work more, but wants to punch the clock and mark time when the tempo of work slows down.
A professional expects to work in a variety of roles and settings as one's career matures. A wage earner wants to keep doing the same job, in the same place.
A professional sees continuing education as a way to grow into a position that requires more responsibility or greater contribution. A wage earner sees continuing education as something that must be done to satisfy the boss or leverage to ask for more money.
A professional feels an affinity toward others in the profession; one wants to collaborate, network, and help others grow. A wage earner sees others as competition for higher wages or a threat to comfortable working conditions; one employs techniques such as bullying and forming cliques to hold back anyone who threatens the status quo.
A professional accepts a challenge and takes responsibility for rising to it. A wage earner expects to be told exactly how to do something and requires positive or negative incentives in order to get it done.
Above at professional vs. wage earner
ReplyDeleteThank you putting this difference into words!
Yes thank you. That clarifies that teachers are indeed professionals.
ReplyDeleteI'm not anti-union, but you can't belong to a labor union and be a professional. They are mutually exclusive. Professionals are employed and paid based on individual merit, not collective bargaining. Being a laborer is respectable, and unions have value, but union teachers are by definition not professional teachers, and vice versa.
ReplyDeleteBaloney, university professors belong to the same type of associations that teachers belong to, as do doctors and lawyers...and administrators belong to unions too...
ReplyDeleteThey do not, lol. Unions are for trades (including some very highly skilled trades), not professionals. There are professional organizations and associations, but they are not the same thing as labor unions (contracts, collective bargaining, etc.)
ReplyDeleteYou are incorrect. I am a professionl journalist who belongs to a union, the Newspaper Guild of America. The Guild negotiates on behalf of those covered under the agreement regarding contracts, collective bargaining, employee rights, grievances, sick bank - all work-related issues. Staffers in my shop aren't required to be dues-paying members, but they still reap the same benefits as hose who have paid annual dues. Check it out
ReplyDeletehttp://www.newsguild.org/
If an industry is union-controlled, it's a trade not a profession. I personally know journalists, and they and they are paid based individual experience and merit, not on union scale, and they are hired and fired based on individual worth to the newspaper, not seniority. Those journalists are professionals. Policemen, firemen, nurses, electricians, carpenters, etc. -- they are trades. They are experts at performing certain skilled tasks. They are not experts in their entire field (law professionals are lawyers, electrical professionals are engineers, medical professionals are doctors, etc.) and they do not alter their field or improve it. Teaching should be a profession. But the far majority of teachers are tradesmen, not professionals.
ReplyDeleteTrade vs profession. Paid athletes that belong to a union then are tradesmen. Paid athletes that do, by your definition, are the only ones that are professionals. Your definition is probably the only one that matters.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I don't see anything wrong with a union. They only get what a company wants to cede to them. If you think unions are evil, then the managers that agree to the contracts are beyond evil. Those managers are really taking their shareholders for a ride.
Teachers unions in the State of Indiana are really impotent. They don't have the right to strike and they really do not have any negotiating strength. Ask any labor lawyer. However, you have decided unions are a problem. Personally, I think weak managers are the problem.
Peyton Manning belongs to a union. The cops union is so great that they can protect drunken murderers. ISTA can't touch that. The Chamber of Commerce is a union too because you pay dues to belong.It's not about unions anyway but which unions support which political entity. The jerks that bash teachers on this blog are pretty low that is unless they were either self-taught or home schooled which I doubt. And from the home-schooled kids we've been receiving this month at our school from all over the country there should be a law against THAT type child abuse. Jethro should not be home-schooling while the Nascar race is on.
ReplyDeleteNobody bashed teachers and nobody bashed unions. People were discussing wage-earners and professionals and unions. People can have an opinion without "bashing." If you think attitudes need to change within the public or within families, are you "bashing" the public or families? And as others have told you before, your anecdotal experiences with homeschooling don't hold up to the actual data available on homeschooled students. Whether you intended to or not, you are actually supporting the person above who said that union people aren't experts in their field.
ReplyDeletecertified! do you have a degree?
ReplyDelete- I have a degree and I'm classified. Way to make generalizations.
I think certified refers to a teacher's license or a teaching position. Classified means a non-teaching job. Degree or not.
ReplyDelete