This topic came up at dinner with some fellow educators last night. One them said the problem with class instruction is one or two disruptive students can really mess things up for the rest. So he suggested we send perpetual problem students home and they attend class over the Internet. They can watch over the computer and with a web-cam. That way if they're disruptive the only person being harmed is them and not the rest of the class.
IPS BS knows this is harsh and there are questions of whether those students will actually learn something at home, but don't we have a responsibility to the greater good and help the greater number of students?
Sunday, December 13, 2009
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With the technology available, I think we'd be better off keeping them in an ISS-type room instead of sending them home. With a computer and headset, there could be several students virtually attending several classes but physically located in one (or a few) rooms. We still couldn't force them to learn, but I think it would be better than sending them home.
ReplyDeleteI'd be concerned some kids would be cheated. Most of the students I know who are disruptive are only disruptive in certain classes, with certain teachers. I don't think those students should be "cast off" I think more effort needs to be put into finding a solution, or switching the child to another classroom. I agree we shouldn't let a couple of disruptive students rob the rest of the class of an education. But I think we have to be careful that we don't rob kids of an education over personality conflicts between the teacher and student or poor classroom management skills of a teacher. (Think about the parallels between teacher/student and administration/teachers dynamics. Think about some of the concerns raised in the union thread about unfair treatment of teachers. Students don't have unions, so we have to be even more careful.)
ReplyDeleteThere are times when the problem is a student/teacher conflict. Most times it is simply a case of an undisciplined student refusing to follow directions and having fun disrupting a class. The simple solution would be for the principals and discipline deans to follow the board adopted discipline policy. It would not take long before most students caught on that we were finished with idle theats and not enforcing policies.
ReplyDeleteThe real question is whether that constitutes and education like that of their peers. That is required to be compliant with law. I also think having students at home would allow them to sleep in, stay up too late, and be alllowed to be free to "do it their way" which is a source of many discipline problems in the first place. Many disruptive students (Other than those with a bona-fied disability) are disruptive because they have issues with compliance with authority. Giving them full authority at home just reinforces the feeling that they can do what they want. The problem with that is it is not preparing them for the world of higher education and eventually the world of work where you often have to do what you do not particularly feel like doing. An ISS option would be preferably in my estimation.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first started teaching, a veteran teacher told me when you send a student out of the room (to the principal, dean, etc.) as discipline, you send your authority out of the room as well. In my many years of teaching, I've only had to send three children out of the room, and none in the last five years. I think you have to look at the big picture. If several teachers are having problems with one student, look at the student. But if it's one teacher having problems with several students -- look at the teacher. (This isn't teacher bashing, and maybe I'm reading too much into a couple of these comments, but I agree with the post above that we have to be expecially careful with kids because they can't properly advocate for themselves and in this district, most of the parents aren't sophistocated enough to advocate for them.)
ReplyDeleteJust to be clear, I do know how to spell especially. :) I think I was combining "especially" and "exceptionally" in my head!
ReplyDeleteWe are already doing on-line instruction with our "home bound" students. IPS provides a computer and cellular/wireless internet connection for their comfort. Most of the student's time is spent trying to get around the filters and not finishing up assignments. I am in my eight year of EH/ED students and some of my students as just plain "mad" at the world for placing them in poverty and with their parents/foster care/life styles/residential treatment. Until you break the cycle of anger, the students will not learn, sometimes it easy to hope and pray they stay at home. Then a student will turn around one day and say "I enjoy your class" and "I will make up my assignments". I know that I will burn out in a few years, I hope I am able to take a break, heal, then work again.
ReplyDeleteI disagree that "most" of the discipline problems are just mad at the world and/or enjoy being disruptive and/or cannot be reached, and it is particularly alarming for a EH/ED teacher to have that viewpoint. No wonder you're burning out! Do you have a coworker or mentor that you can talk to, maybe get some pointers or tips for relating to students? I sympathize with how frustrated you are, I really do. But your post is kind of alarming.
ReplyDeleteI hope you the co worker he/she chooses to talk with is not you as you are clueless. You are alarming and naive.
ReplyDeleteLet's look at the whole picture. Should one or two students keep a class from learning? Yes there is a great deal of anger among the students, but all you have to do is meet the parent and it becomes quite clear why the student is angry. I am a teacher trying to teach those students who want to learn. Problem students don't have to learn at home they can certainly be sent to another school to serve their time in a controlled environment.
ReplyDeleteOne question I have is "Will the students actually learn as much at home?" Also, how woudl this be administered? Home-bound teaching or just give them a PC and let them go for it?
ReplyDeleteI believe that is a good proposal. It will work well with the Plato and ALS credit recovery program. I think may students will opt out of a 180 day classroom for a 5 day online program which provides the same or better quality of instruction. If the online programs of IWU and Phoenix are held in high regard, I imagine many colleges, employers and the DOE would be just as satisfied with students earning all their credits through ALS and Plato (and in a shorter time span - think of the $$ savings). I am sure online chemistry credit is as intense and rigorous as credit earned in a teacher lead classroom. It is probably more rigorous since the student had to at least attend all the sessions and turn in all the work. The ALS and Plato are at least designed by professionals.
ReplyDeleteI think alternative schools are a much better option for a disruptive student. These students are generally not motivated to succeed, and would probably not be motivated to succeed academically from home, either. A physical alternative school is probably a better option for keeping them from disrupting the rest of the classes, but still giving them the attention, instruction, and life skills they need. I'm sure not all alternative schools are wonderful, but there are plenty of successful ones to model.
ReplyDeleteOnline education may be good options for students with other issues (I'm thinking severe social issues, very serious long-term health issues, special family situations). However, my cousin tried one of these and ended up coming back to school behind by a year. It didn't work well for her, so I don't think it was a panacea. It would only be right for motivated students who have an otherwise difficult time at school, I think.
Hell, If I were an IPS student, I'd love to be able to stay home for class. Many students would even to better under these conditions. Why restrict it only to those that don't appreciate it anyway?
ReplyDeleteI'm a parent with children in an IPS magnet. If I thought one of my kids would be better off taking classes from home, I wouldn't do it through IPS, I'd do it through the virtual charter school. IPS tends to stigmatize kids, which makes many problems worse. My point isn't to insult IPS (after all, I voluntarily send my kids there) but it's something to think about because in encouraging this option we would likely end up losing even more kids to charters.
ReplyDeleteI am not certain that IWU and Phoenix are held in high regard. I more often hear the term diploma mill applied to these two "businesses".
ReplyDeleteOnline instruction is the way of the future. We are moving towards a paperless classroom. There are a percentage--small, it may be--but a percentage that have conflicts with every teacher and students in every class. Alternative schools in IPS do not work. I have worked in one before. We need something stricter for the those seriously, disturbed students.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the comment above about diploma mills, you may want to complete an online course before you say it is a "mill". I bet those of you who think this way could not pass even one course. I do monitor these postings and I see the writing skills. I am sure that in the past, some online courses were much easier than a brick and mortar building but today, these classes are very challenging and demanding of your time and test your critical thinking skills.
ReplyDeleteBefore you say that alternative schools in IPS don't work, visit the Phoenix school located at Garfield Phoenix #31. For a few years, this alternative school WASN'T working, but now that there's a FABULOUS admin. running it, it's working out VERY WELL!
ReplyDeleteIf what you post is true, then let's eliminate teachers and get a room full of computers and a computer tech. Think of the money Eugene could save for new administrative positions.
ReplyDeleteAnd a rainbow of new shiny slippers, too!
ReplyDeleteI did hear today that some teachers have been informed that they are being moved into the sub pool.
ReplyDeleteYep, twenty-two teachers and many are being moved without due process and IPS didn't follow the correct procedures. Yes, they screwed up again, and again. Many were done by out of control administrators that forged dates, meetings, and signatures of teachers? Hey, Dr. White your kind of folks, as they lie, steal, cheat, then you get the red slippers and more rings than fingers.
ReplyDeleteI bet Prudence Bridgewaters was involved in this. She is always involved in the teacher hating crap.
ReplyDeleteTwenty-two elementary or secondary?
ReplyDeleteMy high school has NO teachers being moved into the sub pool. There are a few teachers who need a bit of improvement, but the administration in our building does not wish to throw them under the bus. They are working with the teachers. It's better to work at improving what you have than to end up taking a 'pig in a poke', so to speak.
ReplyDeleteSome of those teachers may not think being a permanent sub is all that bad. Just think: no attendance, no lesson plans, no Curriculum Maps, and no grades.
ReplyDeleteA teacher at my school had a call from her husband telling her she had a certified letter demoting her to a sub position. She went to the principal who denied knowing anything about it. Is he lying or too chicken to admit that he dumped her?
ReplyDeleteWhat happens if you are put in the sub position, pay? benefits, sick days, personal days, daily schedule, assigned school? Do you carry around your supplies in a tote? Do you get a desk, locker, a cubbyhole? Enquiring minds want to know.
ReplyDeleteI would assume it will be similar to a sub. I am sure they will have a designated location to report to daily. Teacher pay, but I am not sure about the benefits.
ReplyDeleteYou still get all of your benefits and keep senority. Call IEA, if you are not a union member, good luck.
ReplyDeleteNone of it breaks contract because they are still paid as a teacher and get all of the teacher benefits.
ReplyDeleteSo, teacher pay and benefits, and a heavily decreased workload? What's all the fuss about?
ReplyDeleteBut the real questions is what happens to them after second semester. Are they fired, returned to the classroom, or kept on as a sub?
ReplyDeleteBuilding principals are the persons who submit a list of not so good teachers to the Superintendent. Some principals did not submit any teachers' names; some did.
ReplyDeleteIf they are like the Cadre subs, there are many days that they will sit somewhere with nothing to do. On many of the same days, there will be absent teachers without subs. It is another of the famous IPS right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.
ReplyDeleteCan we volunteer to be placed in this "pool"? I'm retiring at the end of this year, and I'd gladly get out of my crazy school a semester early if I could keep my salary and benefits. I've been weighing the pros and cons of early retirement, hoping against hope that things might get better, but after being ashamed and humiliated by the behavior of these feral children during a recent field trip, my decision to leave is final.
ReplyDeleteI have thought that same thing.
ReplyDeleteWhy not let the more seasoned teachers (close to retirement) have the option to join the Cadre?
Allow the younger teachers from the Cadre to take their places in the classroom.