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Recent discussions in the IPS B.S. blog (Tues., Aug 18, “White Wash”) over who attends the magnets and who does not (who [“troublemakers”] gets kicked out of the magnets and “punished” by being sent to Arlington, Marshall, the alternative programs), and the associations of this with "”Separate but equal is inherently unequal’ and therefore separate and unequal is nothing but a disgrace. Brown v BOE” is worrisome. This is especially the case in light of the 55th (May 17) Anniversary of Brown which compels us to use equality in education (not behavior or “ability”) as the basis of all discussions
This blog thread dialogue begs a basic question: Do children in Marion County have education equality? A review shows the possibility of two educational systems. What could happen, not only due to the nature and politics of charters, but magnets, township, and non-pubic schools, is the creation of parallel school systems--separate and unequal—based not on race, but socio-economic status and ability. See the 2008 report, "School Choice and Segregation by Race, Class and Achievement” on Durham, NC schools.
The growth of charters, the opening of more magnets and special programs, the growth/success of township schools, and the proven quality of private schools—parochial and academic—leave IPS families and students with what’s left. With a 20 year graduation rate average of less than 50 percent (or even less), what remains may be inadequate.
It is common historical knowledge that over the last 125 years particular schools attract the better qualified/experienced teachers and the more academically inclined families and well behaved students—leaving, by default, the less qualified staff and less academic and more disruptive student to “the rest” of IPS.
Charters, magnets, special programs, countered by the closing of over half of IPS small schools and the sub-system of 20-plus alternatives to warehouse school refusers and enforce the new duality have the potential of creating and maintaining a parallel system of 2nd class schools taking IPS back to before 1954. The possibility of a public school created underclass reflects what could become a more refined type of segregation: tracking for the 21st century.
Marion County Educational Apartheid
Upper Tier
Lower Tier
All other IPS schools, programs, and alternatives.
To illustrate this concern, look where IPS placed its gifted and talented magnet. IPS closed schools in June of 2007. One was IPS 28 on English Ave. One was IPS 59 at Kessler Blvd and College. Although it is common knowledge that the gifted/talented come from all layers of society, it is also known these programs end up with a majority of students from professional families. Placing the magnet at 28 would send a strong message to families/students, the city, and the nation that IPS seeks to discredit and abandon this history. But, there was no way IPS would put this type of program in a working-class neighborhood on the near south side. This was done to please the county’s middle class at the political expense of those labeled "economically disadvantaged."
To conclude, it is highly unlikely the quality of education among charters, magnets, special programs (let alone township and non-public schools) and the remainder of IPS schools and its system of alternatives will be the same. We want equal educational opportunity for all children; we do not want two school systems. This possibility, especially in IPS, must be reviewed and monitored.
I do not understand. What would make the lower tier schools equal with the upper tier?
ReplyDeleteHave you been to a magnet pta meeting? Have you been to a 'lower tier' meeting? Can you see the difference? Why do you think this difference exists?
Five years ago, there was no CFI, there was no G&T, there was no fine arts academy. We have made progress. Great progress. It had to start somewhere. Do you start in neighborhoods where the gentry are? Perhaps.
What is the difference between a magnet and a traditional school. The students? What about the students? The families? What about the families?
You make a good point. I would not send my child to 28, yet I would to 59. That is a geographic decision, not a socio-economic one. Does IPS have the families clamoring to create a south side G&T?
Let's say there are "two-tiers"...instead of complaining, start suggesting solutions.
There are tiers within the magnet school. One magnet school was raided of 10 to 20 students to place in a more established magnet by order of Sue Becker, the science supervisor. What authority does she have to override the selections of parents and students......
ReplyDeleteI think the article is beyond idiotic. Was this article published somewhere, or did a teacher write it and send it to you? Either way, I think it is obvious that the author completely misunderstands both the purpose of public education and the purpose of Brown v Board of Education. Equity is not about holding back excellence so that everyone is equally uneducated. It's about allowing everyone the opportunity to be educated to his potential and desire. The IPS magnet programs (and, to be fair, some of the better charter schools) are paths to equality, not obstacles to it.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that we have endorsed a class system, all we need to do is label those who attend Arlington and Marshall as "untouchables", it is un-American. It is not the dream I had when I went into urban education.
ReplyDeleteSomeone once related the following parable at a teaching workshop. It related to "fairness".
Fairness is not equality, it is giving each person what they need to succeed. The speaker said that what would happen if you had a child who needed CPR in class, and didn't give it to the child because if you gave it to one you would need to give it to them all.
The problem is that the kids who need the most are getting the least. In addition they are shuffled off to educational ghettos, and I am using the origin of the word, not it's current meaning: a quarter of a city in which members of a minority group live especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure, an isolated group. Ghetto schools where they never get a chance to even see a normal student.
Think back to the evidence presented at Brown vs BOE. We've gone backwards at lighning speed.
It breaks my heart, I have wonderful, intellegent children who would benefit from the intellectual challenges they are not getting at my own ghetto school. These children exposed to nothing that would challenge them to be better, in fact they are
discouraged by the normative group behavior.
And our board and superintendent condone this.
So to the person who mentioned PTO participation, you believe the sins of the parents should be visited on the children? How biblical of you. If your parents aren't sopisticated enough to get you into a magnet you deserve to be in a school with the rest of your "kind".
ReplyDeleteIt would appear that there is entirely too much effort being put into finding a "PC" explanation to a problem that most people completely understand but don't want to be heard talking about. The explanation is simple. POOR PARENTING. Keep in mind, this is the explanation AND the ONLY true solution to this problem. If parents are willing to accept poor performance from their children and their school system, that is exactly what they are going to get. At the same time, if the majority of parents in ANY school system demand excellence from their children and their school system, the children will respond to good parenting and the school system will be forced to perform accordingly or face losing student population and/or the loss of board members via elections. No amount of funding or special programs will make any real difference without proper parenting. You could take the entire student population from a poor performing IPS inner city school and exchange them for the population of a high performing school and with a possible few exceptions, the poor performers will remain so. Not because of where the school is or who is teaching them, but because of the parenting the students recieve.
ReplyDeleteTo the "poor parenting" poster, there's no argument that good parenting is a huge asset in education. But to me, the whole foundation of public education rests on the premise that we can educate children beyond their upbringing. If we don't believe that, then why are we here?
ReplyDeletePoor parenting poster, you may use that as an excuse if you like; it may be an explanation but it is not an excuse. When you came into IPS did you think that you would be dealing with educated and highly intellegent parents? There are some, but the majority of our students parents are low income. This is not to say they don't love their children, and this is the start of the relationship between the parent and the teacher, and/or school. It is incumbent upon the teacher to attempt to enlist the support of parents in the journey to educate their child. Parents and teachers are shooting for the same goal, a successful child.
ReplyDeleteThis is also the problem with our current administration. In Dr. Whites blog he mentions all these factors as reasons/explanations of why IPS needs more money but when teachers plead for help, supplies, reasonable work conditions, honest and compassionate administrators we're told we are unreasonable whiners. We face the most difficult teaching situations in the nation and we get no respect.
I see this as a way for IPS to "save a few schools", and let Dr. Bennett take over Arlington and John Marshall. Dr. White will have a few well performing schools and huge bonuses from the Board Members for a job well done on five schools.
ReplyDeleteThere will always be exceptions. However, if you had one classroom of students with good parenting and another classroom of students with bad parenting (all students having the same I.Q. and ability), the performance level of the two classrooms will NOT be equitable. This is a simple fact that will never be fully overcome solely by the efforts of a school system. A school system does not have the power to appreciably change the social fabric of the community in which it resides. In fact, any school system is created by and is a direct reflection of the community it serves. These facts are most certainly unfortunate. However, they are most definitely facts.
ReplyDeleteRegarding your question "Why are we here?": It is only fair that before I comment on this I inform you that I am not a teacher. I apologize if my prior comments implied otherwise. I am a parent of two teenagers that has tried to stay as involved and active as possible in their education. I do not pretend to know what your job is like or to be capable of doing it better. I do agree that you and your school system are fully capable of educating children beyond their upbringing, but only in cases where you succeed in finding ways to overcome the negative effects that upbringing creates. Decades of graduation rates below 50% mean that either the school system IS actually completely inadequate, or it is unable to perform adequately due to circumstances beyond it's control. The fact that this is EVER accomplished is a credit to you and teachers like you. I have to believe that the reason you and teachers like you continue to try has to be because you truly care despite the odds. You also know that these kids are no less deserving of opportunity just because their parents refuse to do their job. Without people who care, there would literally be no chance for disadvantaged students to succeed.
From a earlier post--"I have wonderful, intellegent children who would benefit from the intellectual challenges they are not getting at my own ghetto school. These children exposed to nothing that would challenge them to be better, in fact they are discouraged by the normative group behavior."
ReplyDeleteIf this was written by a teacher, then why wouldn't you encourage the student and/or parent to apply to one of the magnet programs?
IPS parents need schools where the children they are raising to be courteous, productive members of society can go. It is the other parents who refuse to do their job, but I'm doing mine.
ReplyDeleteSimple, my adminsitrator would kill me, you'd find my body on a cross in front of the school.
ReplyDeleteBack when I taught at a school that also included a magnet I often sent kids to their program, not because the teachers were better (they weren't) but because you learn as much from your colleagues as you do from your instructor. Now I'd be sending my smart kids to a whole new school. Also sadly I have some self interest in this issue, I certainly don't want to be teaching hoards of students with no real intellectual curiosity, I want to have fun with my kids and I look forward to seeing these bright shiny little faces ready to work.
It may be a commonly held urban legend that the best teachers are in the higher income schools. I'd love to see a reality show that exchanged teachers from an exclusive private school and an urban low income high school.
ReplyDelete"Equity is not about holding back excellence so that everyone is equally uneducated. It's about allowing everyone the opportunity to be educated to his potential and desire. The IPS magnet programs (and, to be fair, some of the better charter schools) are paths to equality, not obstacles to it."
ReplyDeleteI agree 100%!
A teacher who's only experience was in a high income school would of course not be equipped to handle a class full of disadvantaged kids. But there is a lot more to it than that. First of all, being low income does not have to mean you are a poor parent any more than high income makes you a good parent. Second, in either case, a teacher's abilities are much better utilized actually teaching the students rather than getting past layers of attitude and generations of ingrained entitlement mentality before any real learning can begin. Third, complaining about something you cannot change is counter productive. The only thing you can do is keep trying or find something else to do.
ReplyDeleteNo, I am not actively keeping anyone from applying to the magnet. Therefore it is a sin of ommission, rather then a sin of commission.
ReplyDeleteI'm also providing the children with top quality instruction in my subject area.
Here is a novel thought, why not read "Savage Inequalities" by Kozol, then come back and defend this practice.
ReplyDeleteA sin of ommission is still very, very wrong.
ReplyDeleteIf you have students "who would benefit from the intellectual challenges" that another IPS school might provide, then you have a moral obligation to encourage the student and their parents to explore these other options. If not, you are just purpetuating the cycle of mediocrity and failure since you cannot control for the quality of the rest of their school day or "the normative group behavior" that discourages academic excellence.
And what happens to the rest of my students as I become nothing but a jailer who tries to get them to learn. And what happens if one of these bright shining children awakens some intellectual curiosity in a previously unmotivated student, not a chance for that kid to even see the motivated student. This is the entire problem with this insane magnet program. Children develop at different speeds and the one who no one ever looks at as a possible magnet student might be the smartest kid in the group, just a late bloomer.
ReplyDeleteWho will replace me when I slit my own throat?
Last time I checked, the vast majority of IPS teachers and principals don't send their kids to IPS. If they did maybe we wouldn't have such "savage inequalities".
ReplyDeleteAs a middle class parent who happens to live in the city, I have no desire to "flee" but damn it I am entitled to a public school where I can send my children and know they are being intellectually challenged--especially since I pay lots of property taxes to support the public schools. The magnets provide that option and they are much more diverse--both racially and socio-economically--than the schools in Carmel, Hamilton Southeastern, or Zionsville.
This is a most excellent discussion, perhaps the best one on this blog yet. While I don’t agree with many of the things that Dr. White has done, his divide and conquer system is worth a serious discussion. I noticed that as soon as Dr. White came to IPS he realized that to be successful, he had to “skim the cream”. He set up many “alternative” schools and began to expand the magnet programs. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what he was doing.
ReplyDeleteThe question is, is this a right and moral thing to do?
There is no question that the school system has limited power on its ability to change society. All of our government systems are under stress because of our societal moral decay. Dr. White is simply saying. Look, we can’t force our city to change, but we can at least attempt to shine the light on the problem. By allowing the possibility for a student to attend a school with other like-minded students he is placing the choice back onto the parents and ultimately the student. No, this is not fair. It is not fair that a bright student with bad parents will end up in a school with idiots that don’t care. It is not fair that some teachers will end up in the “good” schools and some end up in the “bad” schools. It is also not fair that Dr. White will look good for rising test scores when all he did was shuffle the deck.
It is time for all of us in this country to stand up and admit that we have failed to instill in our children a moral compass. We have failed at parenting, and we have turned the blame upon our institutions. Anytime Dr. White or any of us blame our institutions for the larger societal problems, we are deluding ourselves.
So back to the original question... Is this a right and moral thing to do? The answer is yes. Our society is too far-gone to expect education to fix it. It is time for those who are serious about change to put up or shut up. What if our city schools really were doing our best at teaching? Dr. White could never admit (and keep his job) that most teachers are doing their best. If he admitted that, he would also have to admit that the school system is powerless to stem the tide of our cultural decay all by itself.
This is not to suggest for one minute that a good teacher can’t make a difference. Great teachers can make the ultimate difference for some. This is why I am a teacher in a “bad” school and proud of it. This is also why I live in a “bad neighborhood”. I am going to do everything that I can to make a difference in this world. All of us in this country can make a difference. It begins with us. Not with our schools!
No child should not be held responsible for "awakening some intellectual curiosity in a previously unmotivated student"--that is plain wrong! And the "insane" magnet programs are the best hope for many students in IPS, not just middle class students. And if they were just for middle class students, the programs would be empty since there are few middle class families left in IPS. Most have fled because of attitudes like yours.
ReplyDeleteAnd the "insane" magnets are also the best hope for keeping Indianapolis from turning into another Gary or Detroit--cities where no one lives unless they are too poor to escape.
The child is not responsible for this, it just happens, last year I had a lovely young woman in one of my classes, her positive attitude and spirit lifted the whole class. She got sick and missed a week and I noticed one young man had stopped working, I spoke to him and he couldn't explain why he wasn't working,he just didn't "feel" it. She returned and he started working again. I've been teaching a long time and I've seen this several times, but basically it is an unexplainable event. I'm not sure what she did or what the dynamic was but I know she was the deciding factor.
ReplyDeleteAnother time I had a group of elementary students and they had the most wonderful chemisty. If you had told them today we are going to eat dirt, they would have been excited and willing to try it.
I don't for a minute downplay the influence of classmates on a students experiences, I'm part of the equasion but not all of it.
I have a series of e-mails I recieved from a student who dropped out and if I can get in touch with him I may post the letters. We'll see, they are very special to me and they speak to this exact point.
Excellent discussion poster, I agree.
ReplyDelete"I had a lovely young woman in one of my classes, her positive attitude and spirit lifted the whole class. She got sick and missed a week and I noticed one young man had stopped working, I spoke to him and he couldn't explain why he wasn't working,he just didn't "feel" it. She returned and he started working again."
ReplyDeleteThis is a lovely story, but this young woman is not responsible for motivating other students. She needs an education too and she needs to be intellectually challenged, otherwise she is just being dumbed down.
If you need a motivational speaker, then pay her to do that job. Anything less is exploitation.
The community high schools are indeed neighborhood high schools, or, in other words, 'hood' schools. Don't think for a minute that the students don't realize this.
ReplyDeleteWe don't need 'hood' schools; we need a few comprehensive traditional high schools that offer the full scope and sequence of high school courses. Some of the community schools lack any electives.
The magnet high schools are fine for those with special talents/interests; however, the community high schools have a negative connotation. Traditional high schools (9-12) do not carry a negative connotation.
$5 for the first person to guess correctly which of the above posts was written by Jane Kendrick.
ReplyDeleteI know even in the worst of schools in the worst of classes that there are bright students who want to learn and do well. Guess who ends up getting most of our time........the troublemakers...
This is a lovely story, but this young woman is not responsible for motivating other students. She needs an education too and she needs to be intellectually challenged, otherwise she is just being dumbed down.
ReplyDeleteAgain what don't you understand, she had NO responsibility for motivating anyone, she simply did, and the curriculum was not dumbed down, she was intellectual challenged, at the end of the class she told me, "I didn't think I could do this (subject) but it turned out I am good at it". The high tide lifts all boats, but to kids who never get to see a tide, because their body of water is really nothing but a mud puddle, circumscribed by a decision made by people who don't know or care about them, who never think above the level of what is "practical and reasonable" there isn't a chance their boat will rise.
Tell that to all the families who have fled IPS --that would include most IPS teachers and administrators. Clearly they do not want their children to be the high tide that lifts all boats!
ReplyDeleteI see the improvement of a few schools as the beginning of a renaissance in IPS. If we retool a few schools a year into places where families want to send their children, then they can eventuallty all be application-only schools--except one. We will have one K-12 school remaining, where we would send all the kids whose parents do not care enough to fill out a simple application form. But instead of letting that one school become a "warehouse" for the "dregs", we could choose to focus the very best resources there: social workers, master teachers, etc. IPS could be a model district one day, but we are having some growing pains right now.
ReplyDeleteTo the "renaissance in IPS" poster: If all the problem students in IPS would litarally fit into only one building, we would already be better than any school system in the nation has ever been. Your concept is noble. I'm sure we would all love to see it happen, but it is totally unrealistic.
ReplyDeleteI actually think we tried that once, didn't we call it Select Schools, didn't we waste enough money on buses and driving kids all over city, that had it been spent in elementary class rooms could have reduced the class size in grades k-3 in half? And didn't only 4 to 8 percent of parents even make a selection?
ReplyDeleteIPS used to be one of the finest urban districts in the country. Part of the problem has been the decisions of the board and central administration that take more and more money out of the classroom and put it into "administrative" functions. We don't need $90,000 basketball coaches. We don't need decisions about hiring made on the basis of who someone is sleeping with or who someone's child or family member is. We do need administrators who hold high expectations and lead by example. You cannot manage people into battle you have to lead them.
Here is a thought, take that $90,000 and open a real parent support center in one of the poorest neighborhoods. Offer incentives and support to parents who come in, a place to hang with their preschool children. Teach them that even if they can't read they can hold thier little child in their laps and pretend to read (the child won't know for years) Demonstrate and support good parenting, teaching your baby to get along. Teaching colors, doing developmentally appropriate activities with your child. Build these parents up and improve their parenting skills.
We could innovate in education. An old principal was fond of saying we have the brains in this building to solve any problem, unfortunately the current attitude is teachers are dumb cows, they must be lead along and told where to go and what to think...shut up and do as I say.
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ReplyDeleteGreat post and an entire interesting array of quesitions. This issue is larger then just IPS. I live near a blue ribbon township elementary school, I never go near the school because it breaks my heart to see their lovely playground and look in the window and see all the books, supplies, computers, and technology in the rooms, never mind the space and beautiful modern building. It really is the essence of the question of this educational equity issue. Carmel, North Central and Noblesville have High Schools that rival and in some cased exceed many small and real universities.
ReplyDeleteNow IPS is taking it a step further, and within the system adopting a model that further polarizes the classes. And the JROTC analogy is spot on. It's gone from BRHS, Shortridge, and Attucks. I came from a wealthy suburban district, both as a previous place of employment and I had never heard of JROTC, it is only in ghetto schools.
Kentucky did a whole school reform several years ago when the courts decided that the funding was inequitable. All teachers are now state employees, and if you teach in inner city schools you make MORE MONEY.
I really wish that Gretchen Lampe was still around because she could tell you more about this effort. I do know that Frank DeSensi who would come and speak was involved. I saw him several times and he was not a great orator but his intellect and ideas were powerful and the scrimage testing was one of his ideas that IPS has bastardized, something they are so good at.
We did address your topic. You simply disagree with us. We are not confused or sidetracked. I agree with the above poster that magnets are solutions for the equity problems not symptoms of it. Putting the gifted and talented school in an area known for sending their kids to private schools is a smart move, in my opinion. It challenges the idea that IPS is just for the poor people, while also being more likely to attract students who might not otherwise attend the public school system. The magnet schools are not all or even mostly white, or all or even mostly wealthy, so I don't know where the apartheid and elitist comparisons are coming from. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think most people would disagree with you on this.
ReplyDeleteYes, this is an excellent discussion. It takes in all the schools in the county, both private and public, and sorts them on the scale of better vs. less educational opportunity showing a new society of segregation based on class and ability, not race. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteWe who started this thread want to respond to the writers above:
ReplyDeleteTO “Equity is not about holding back excellence…” and “I agree 100%”: As you imply, magnets per se are not the problem. Our question [is]: are the educational opportunities at Attucks, Washington Community H. S., the Decatur Discovery Academy (charter), North Central H. S., and New Horizons Alternative H. S. equal? Does each have the same quality teachers, books, science/computer labs, lunches, or gyms? Another way to look at it, how come IPS Tech offers barbering and Franklin Central does not?
As well, do you think the various schools in Marion County provide all students an equal educational opportunity to be “…educated to his potential and desire”? Hey, your point is a worthy goal, yet how can one be educated to one’s “potential and desire” in a nationally recognized “dropout factory” such as IPS Manual or Arlington?
Finally, it is not particular “good” charters or magnets which are obstacles to equality it’s the lower tiers schools and the rationale that justifies them that are obstacles to equal education opportunity.
TO the writer who insists on bringing in parents (“poor parenting”) into this discussion: That’s what you want us to say. Our concerns are with unequal educational opportunity. Parents/parenting is a red herring here. We would never say parents are not vital and an important leg on the 3-legged stool of education: parents, students, and teachers. Please bring up your concerns re: “poor parenting” on your own blog thread.
TO the writer who pointed out where IPS teachers send their children: IPS staff knows which schools are in lower tier and which are in upper tier. This proves our point re: educational apartheid. Thanks!
TO “We did address your topic”: Magnets are great, it’s just they are limited as to how many students can attend and by the fact it is common knowledge they provide opportunities not provided at the so-called “hood” schools. Also, 2 of the main IPS magnet high schools have just opened. We won’t know who’ll end up there for a while. We do know, however, a main purpose of the magnets (and school uniforms) was to draw the black and white middle classes back to IPS. So, class not race is the issue.
We are not against a gifted and talented magnet at #59, we just one on the other side of the tracks at #28. Also, our point about ROTC was validated. Finally, many of those who are writing do agree with this thesis. We are surprised at the support. See you in “IPS Apartheid II” discussion.
Quoting from above:
ReplyDelete"TO the writer who insists on bringing in parents (“poor parenting”) into this discussion: That’s what you want us to say. Our concerns are with unequal educational opportunity."
I will continue to insist on bringing parenting into this conversation because despite your refusal to acknowledge it, parenting is the number one issue.
Quoting again:
"We would never say parents are not vital and an important leg on the 3-legged stool of education: parents, students, and teachers."
This premise is totally and completely wrong. Parents are not equal in their responsibility with teachers and students. Parents are completely responsible for their child's education. If the child doesn't do their part, they are responsible for discipline. If the school doesn't do its part, it is the parents responsibility to provide for the needs of the student by any means necessary. Teachers definitely play a supporting role, but don't consider yourself as too important. Believe it or not, education would continue even without professional teachers.